Art De La Guerre

[Mike Bennett]

[Snowcat]

Interesting tactics. I'll see what I can do similarly with the Avars.
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"When one goes, one must go with style."

[KevinD]

LH can be used in many different ways and to some extent you need to choose when designing a list.

One or two in a command can be useful to slow enemy movement on the first turn and give your heavies a chance to redeploy to get better matchups behind the screen. I get a lot of utility out of laterally redeploying a group of 4-5 HC under a Brilliant general or a strategist with 3 moves by going into a column moving 10 UDs, then turning back into a line on the third move. This is very useful to do the disappearing center where everyone gets out of the way of the steamroller coming at your center and goes to find juicier targets on the wings (or vice versa). If your opponent leaves a gap this can allow you to pull this same maneuver and pop up on his flank 10 UDs from where you started.

They can also make raids or feints towards enemy camps.

4 packs (2x2) can also concentrate firepower. Because of their 360 degree of firing and target selection rule (nearest enemy within any arc) it is very easy to get all four firing at one opponent. They can also evade much better than MC (but watch you don’t fall off the edge of the world if you evade) and are much more resilient versus return fire.

One LC charging on a flank will take away special abilities like impact and prevent the enemy from disengaging.

Having LH scattered around can often leave one in the perfect spot to block evades (a double turn with a 90 degree wheel and a 4 UD move can often get you to surprising locations and angles) or get behind an enemy line and ZOC it (if the LC is the most threatening enemy, your opponent can’t charge anyone else - this is particularly devastating against a line of Impetuous troops who have targets more than one UD in front of them and will almost certainly break him up into multiple disjointed groups with gaps). However, the chance to do these sorts of things is hard to predict/set up in advance - the best I seem to be able to do is just have lots of LC hanging around and sooner or later one might get into the perfect spot to do something quite clever. - I’m sure better players than me could have this all planned out four moves in advance but it’s beyond my ability.

[lionelrus]

[Snowcat]

I note that in that Patrician list above, the medium foot are not vanilla, and are supported.

Well, given that the medium/light foot in the Avar list is very vanilla, I've kept them to a minimum (primarily as trigger-filler, with a reduced rough terrain force role) with the following army. I could swap 1 MI for 1 Javelinmen (taking the total up to 200pts), but didn't see much point. I could also swap 1 HC from the 3rd command with a LH from the 1st command.

Avar 199 pts

1 Brilliant Commander included 3
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
4 HC Bow @11 44
3 LC Bow @6 18
8 units 78

1 Brilliant Commander included 3
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
3 HC Bow @11 33
2 LC Bow @6 12
3 MI @6 18
1 LI Bow @4 4
10 units 83

1 Ordinary Commander included -3
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
2 HC Bow @11 22
1 LC Bow @6 6
4 units 38
22 units 199 pts

Cheers
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[KevinD]

I would recommend against including Brilliant generals.

A bad die roll or two and you’ve lost 5 army cohesion points.

Further they can’t roam around rallying units.

Finally you lose much of the Brilliant CP bonus once he’s locked in melee.

All of these liabilities only to save 3-6 points is not worth it.

If you want Brilliant generals make them independent.

If you want to attach your generals make the ordinary, or competent at most.

[Snowcat]

Fair enough. I'll convert 1 HC in the 3rd command into a LC. 5 points saved + 1pt spare = 6 points for both Brilliant generals to not be included. Same number of units and no lost 'elites'.

Avar 200 pts

1 Brilliant Commander 6
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
4 HC Bow @11 44
3 LC Bow @6 18
8 units 81

1 Brilliant Commander 6
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
3 HC Bow @11 33
2 LC Bow @6 12
3 MI @6 18
1 LI Bow @4 4
10 units 86

1 Ordinary Commander included -3
1 HC Bow Elite @13 13
1 HC Bow @11 11
2 LC Bow @6 12
4 units 33
22 units 200 pts

Also tempted to convert 1 of the MI into another LC in 2nd command.


_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Hazelbark]

Jumping in late to this stream.

For Avars i would take 1-3 CV bow as MC.

I would take 3 MI sword and 1-2 LI. Its main purpose is a force in being that prevents someone from putting 1-2 bow in rough and causing lots of grief. Also they can stand off rough while you attack past it.

MI are under rated by players for the most part they are just as good against enemy MI after the first turn. Also if they have 3 MI you can move a LH into support for a round or two of melee to try to up your odds. You can make a case for 4 MI but not 5.

Now vs Javelin LMI. I think the LMI are nifty but have a much steeper learning curve and people start think they are good enough against decent MI and they are not. Take them if you want 2 and you are committed to always evading.

The people who don't like impetuous CV just don't play with them enough. They will do wonders about winning the CV bow competition.

The issue with an Avar like army isn't how you fight a foe who is good in rough, because you will never square off against Dailami or massed MI in rough if you are smart. The question is how do you have just enough to be helpful vs someone else that mostly wants to fight in the clear.

[KevinD]

One of my favorite tactics to support my mounted is taking 2-3 MI 1/2 Sw or Sp 1/2 Bw or XB (or LMI Bw/XB etc.), sitting in rough ground and plinking away at enemy mounted nearby. An enemy with a few MI Sw makes this a much less attractive option for me and certainly not something I would want to try with LMI Bw.

[Snowcat]

[Mike Bennett]

[Snowcat]

Really good points there Mike, thanks.

(I think I'll build an extra force of 4-6 impetuous HC to swap into the army vs different opponents or just for when the mood takes me.)

Cheers
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Hazelbark]

If you want to see HC in action I have an old Ostrogoths in action PDF (v3) It is probably in the FB files, but if you PM i will send you the pdf of I think 4 games.

Essentially you just commit and accept that there is nearly only one reaction to any issue...charge. But you have them on the outside of the army and they likley meet equal power or get around flanks. The 4 UD move means if they turn the line they project into the enemy rear quite fast.

Some old school gamers think too much like DBM and do not realize these don't scatter the same way.

So the issue is if they engage superior forces, do you hope they die slowly or do you reinforce as they are reasonably strong and hope to overwhelm that point.

[Snowcat]

PM sent with thanks.

Looking forward to reading about those Goths.
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[ALEXANDER]

Hi snowcat

I would take the 6 HC impetuos with a included ordinary General
or 5 HC impetous + 1 HC bow* Included General

2 MI or 2 Javelinmen is a strange choice.
Perhaps I would try to play with 2 javelinmen

They have protection 1, so they can throw their javelins
at 1 Ud against enemy bowmen in fields and fight against Li
...and 2 javelinmen might be VERY useful,
if your enemy has elephants