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238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 02, 2022 5:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
LMI Firearms are better against armored enemies - HI or MI with Armor, HI Fully Armored, HKn and cataphracts. MI Bw are better against LMI Bw, LB & XB and MC. Which do you think you’ll be fighting more often and which are more dangerous to your army that you need a better counter against?

A mix is nice if together because if you get both shooting at one target you can pick the better one to be the main shooter. But many players will work to avoid giving you this opportunity.

Firearms are nasty against armored later medievals if you plan to just get a couple of shots before passing Swordsmen (dismounted knights?) through them or using slides to drop them back.

When given a choice between LMI Bw and XB I usually choose all XB - but that’s because I really want to shoot up HKn and armored infantry if they are threatening me. For LI operating from terrain I like Bw so they can be more or less even shooting LMI Bw or MC Bw types and the ability and opportunity of LI XB to damage, say, HKn is low - if they were screening my battle line LI XB might be more worthwhile.

I generally think mixed commands are better for larger commands. With a mixed command you can often react to your opponent’s deployment to get the matchups you want - put the mounted on the left or right of the infantry for example. This is more often the case when you attack. It also gives you more flexibility about dealing with terrain and deciding what troops you want to mass across two commands. Let’s assume you have two commands: either both mixed foot and mounted or one all mounted and one all foot. If they are mixed you can put both infantry blocks in the together with mounted covering their wings, or split the foot up to deal with two pieces of terrain while you mass the mounted together for a decisive action. As you note this can also make it more difficult for your opponent to screen or delay whatever he is most afraid of.

If the fighting will mainly involve one type or the other it allows you more CPs to rally, break off or turn engaged units, or to move two separate blocks of troops to cover or threaten flanks, etc. If one command has all the fighting troops its general might not have enough COs to do all the rallies or micro maneuvers (turning pikes onto enemy flanks for example) that you want.

I think the argument that corps with two types won’t get enough CPs to manage both is a bit of a red herring. The first turn is when most maneuvering like this happens and an ordinary general guarantees getting 1 CP plus his own meaning you can move two blocks, once each. It can be an issue for them which is why small commands led by ordinary generals should usually be able to move together if necessary. However when you have a Brilliant general you guarantee getting 2 CPs plus the general’s meaning you can move one block once and the other twice, and two thirds of the time you can move each block twice. Usually you don’t need and can’t use more moves than this. (A specialized exception might be cavalry that want to deploy 10-12 UDs on turn one - their commander probably doesn’t want to be distracted by other troops needing to move on turn one, but even here a few supporting infantry can alway catch up later after the enemy is punned and you have sprung your trap.) After the first turn you are fighting and doing tactical maneuvering, not long range sweeping maneuvers, and here the ability to have two generals pumping CPs into your most critical moves/rallies each turn really helps.

Another reason I like them is that two mixed commands and a small third one can often use the weak fading center (small more mobile corps) and two strong wings that overwhelm the enemy’s flanks while your center slowly falls back. Admittedly this is often a stronger tactic for armies stronger in light and heavy cavalry rather than more ponderous late Medieval Western armies, but even here at can often be your best counter to a mobile enemy trying to get around your flanks - you might not need a strong center against such opponents and two self supporting wings might counter the enemy’s most dangerous threat of an enveloping attack.

Finally having 1 stand of LC or HC in on the end of your HKn can be very useful. When they charge together the faster types have a much better chance of catching enemy evaders, and can maneuver to cover your flank if necessary. HC Impact that hit a fleeing opponent in the rear go in 4 factors better (CAV, Impact, Rear, Disorder on Caught Evaders) and stand an excellent chance of breaking them, MC XB are only +3 (lose Impact) and LC Bw are only about even (lose Cav too, lose the disorder when you catch enemy from behind and the enemy keeps his base factor vs LC, but add another if armed with javelins or Impact). This threat can make Cav shooters a lot more cautious around you. Further HC Impact, even if charging alone, has very good odds against LMI Shooters trying to plink your HKn from beyond the Kn’s charge reach. (HC Impact charging alone against 2 LMI Bw is +2 to +2, with armor and furious charge. Even if the melee does not go so well, by tying the shooter and supporters in melee it prevents another 1-2 rounds of shooting on you knights as they trundle forward.)

[Edited bit about LC catching evaders.]


Dernière édition par KevinD le Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 1:53 pm; édité 2 fois
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Snowcat
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Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 2:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Kevin

Thanks very much for your recent post. A lot of great tactical 'teaching' in there. I shall copy it into an ADLG Tactics document! Smile

I think the current version of my Landsknecht force is pretty much complete now. One thing you mentioned about the HC impact supporting Heavy Knights has me wondering if the Heavy knight (no impact) in the 3rd corps would benefit the corps by being downgraded to Heavy cavalry impact for the reasons you gave. That would then make the corps: 2 x Heavy knight impact (one of these with ordinary general included), 1 Heavy cavalry impact, 1 Medium cavalry firearm. The point saved could then go to restoring the mediocre Bowmen in the 1st corp to non-mediocre if I also change the Foot knight in the 2nd corp to a Heavy knight (saving 1 more point) and just dismount him at start of game as Alexander suggested (or not, and just leave him mounted). Alternatively, those 2 points saved could make a Medium cavalry firearm a Heavy cavalry instead, or something similar.

I think I'd prefer to have one of my LMI shooters armed with handguns or crossbow, so will probably change this. Having both LMI shooters (one Bow, the other Crossbow or Handgun) in the same corps would make using them in support of each other ideal against whatever the opponent might have (as you explained), but might also provide an additional target to the enemy's shock troops, and won't be as able to assist the other corps (that one of them has been removed from). If both LMI shooters were in the same corps (e.g. 2nd corps), they could intermingle the pike block or be on the ends of it. I'm guessing the LMI shooters being on the flanks of the pike block could be a very bad idea, as if they were charged and beaten, the pike block's flank is instantly exposed. One of the LMI shooters could be replaced in the combat line by the dismounted/foot knight general's element.

Thanks again. Smile
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 5:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I often take mixed commands, but the mixes are rarely equal. Ie one cavalry heavy, the other foot heavy. Then each can be placed and used on a specific mission. Even more importantly it is easier with a couple of units kept back to make a gap to slot them into a key point in the line place as their group is narrower. Also if I am short of cps I can prioritise the most influential one in that command
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Mike Bennett
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 6:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
….LC Bw are only 2 better (lose Cav too, but add another if armed with javelins or Impact).)


I do not think that the light inflict the disorder for catching evaders, nor do they reduce them to zero, so it is generally an even fight, no armour and 2 v 3 cohesion. If gets even messier if they do not kill, or at least win, and caught troops turn round.

Cav +1
Light horse 0+1 for rear

HC impact in with knights is very sound advice. I pretty much always do this is if I expect to meet cavalry who will shoot and evade.
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Snowcat
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Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 7:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Good points there, Mike.

One of the reasons I moved the Heavy knights from my 2nd corps, while keeping Pikemen in both 1st and 2nd corps, was to put them into the small 3rd corps to act as a fire brigade/assault force, deploying last where it is most needed. (The 1st corps has a mix of Pikemen and Heavy knights impact + Heavy cav impact & missile auxiliaries, so this has the Brilliant general. The 2nd corps is more of an infantry force, although it does also have a Heavy cav impact in addition to missile auxiliaries. The 3rd corps is all-mounted and is a mix of Heavy knights impact, Heavy cav impact + Medium cav firearm.) So I'm liking the flexibility this appears to offer me, with what is essentially a brute force army.

Cheers
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 10:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
1 Brilliant General @6 6
2 Landsknecht pikemen @11 22
4 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 40
3 Medium Cavalry firearm @9 27
1 Mercenary bowmen mediocre @5 5
2 Light infantry crossbow @4 8

1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Heavy knight @11 11
2 Landsknecht pikemen @11 22
1 Mercenary bowmen mediocre @5 5
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8

1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Heavy Knight @ 11 11
2 Landsknecht pikemen @11 22
1 Militia Crossbowmen mediocre @5 5
2 Light infantry crossbow @4 8

1 Fortified camp @6 6
25 units 200pts
Scouting +1

JUST TO DEMONSTRATE
What else is possible.
It has 25 units Smile
...and I even did not used any Pikemen mediocre
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 1:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ooh I shall look at this! The 6 landsknechts are there which is most important for me, so it's looking good. Just one possible issue: the Heavy knights didn't get 'impact'. Might this be a problem for them? Or not an issue because you've only taken 1 per command (in 2 commands). So they're possibly/probably going to be dismounted anyway as the generals' units.

25 units, sounds too good to be true! Smile

Cheers
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 2:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes. The 2 Heavy Knight (generals included) units can dismount and then move together with the rest.
But the could stay mounted too and fight even against Heavy Knight impact. The General Bonus gives them a plus 1 in every combat round. ..and rallying is very easy with the General included.

The idea is to place the Bowmen in the center (between the 2 Pikemen) with the dismounted knight behind them and able to interpenetrate those bowmen.
In your first round your Brilliant General will bring his infantry group forward in the central sector, to be able to start shooting next turn.
The 2 Sub Generals corps can protect both flanks of this central Group.

Then your Brilliant General can attach to his cavalry (4 HC and 3 MC) and try to move around the enemy... to attack its rear. Or charge with all his Cavalry through the center (His flanks will be protected by his sub Generals

This will be a completly different kind of battle
compared to fighting with Heavy Knights impact
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 2:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Only one thing confuses me. If the Brilliant general is in command of the 1st corp and is in the centre with the 2 sub commands on either flank, how does he move his cavalry around the opponent's flank (if he is in the centre)? Is he going to take a very wide swing around the battlefield first?
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 4:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If you leave your cavalry in reserve in the first turn (i.e. outside 4 UD from the enemy) then he can attach to them and ride in a wide circle around the enemy flank.
The Brilliant General always has 3 cps.
2 Cps plus his own Generals Cp.
This means the cavalry can ride 48 cm per turn. In round 3 you can be anywhere. And if your General is still within 8 Ud of your centre he might even still command his infantry..
Meanwhile, the rest of your Piken + Bowmen army stands in the center like a hedgehog and fires.
It's basically a hammer and anvil tactic

You can even attack with the HC Impact frontally
and with the MC firearm in the flank or rear.
The MC are perfect for doing this flank or rear attacks.
.
PS. Its probably better to have the crossbowmen in your 1 Corps and the bowmen with your Sub Generals.
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 03, 2022 4:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have to admit, I like your Medieval Germans better and better. You have so many things to try. And we haven't really talked about the Warwagen, mediocre Pikemen or the English Archer yet.

In contrast, my later Swiss are primitive Sad
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 12:44 am    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
My concern with your list/plan is your 2nd and/or 3rd corps being overwhelmed or flanked themselves while your big hammer sweeps around in a wide arc into a position to strike.

You may find this difficult to achieve against a canny opponent with a decent frontage. It would however have the element of surprise.

I'd probably be more comfortable with a combination somewhere between your more 'radical' plan and my most recent iteration (with assistance from yourself and others). Not sure if this is possible, but might be worth a try.

It is a good army to work with! Smile

This is where I'm at with mine:

238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mercenary crossbowmen mediocre @5 5
1 Mercenary light infantry crossbow @4 4
1 Mercenary light infantry bow @4 4
88
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Men-at-arms heavy knight @11 11
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mercenary bowmen mediocre @5 5
2 Handgunners light infantry firearm @4 8
64
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
2 Men-at-arms heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
42
1 Fortified camp @6 6
22 units 200pts

Cheers
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 9:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would recommend a little change in organisation.

Your 1 corps will still have 2 groups to move,
but your 2nd Corps will be infantry only,


Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht Pikeniere @11 33
2 Bewaffnete schwerer Ritterschlag @ 13 26
2 Leichter Lanzenreiter schwerer Kavallerieschlag @ 10 20
1 Söldner-Armbrustschützen mittelmäßig @ 5 5
1 Söldner-Armbrust der leichten Infanterie @ 4 4
1 Söldner der leichten Infanterie-Bogen @ 4 4

1 Gewöhnlicher General eingeschlossen @ -3 -3
1 Bewaffneter Schwerer Ritter @11 11
3 Landsknecht-Pikeniere @11 33
1 Bogenschützen-Söldner Mittelmäßig @5 5
2 Handschützen Leichte Infanterie-Feuerwaffe @4 8

1 Gewöhnlicher General eingeschlossen @-3 -3
2 Men-at-Arms Schwerer Ritterschlag @13 26
1 Leichter Lanzenreiter Schwerer Kavallerieschlag @10 10
1 Berittene Handschützen MC-Feuerwaffe @9 9

1 Befestigtes Lager @6 6
22 Einheiten 200 Punkte
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 10:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
About the radical Cavalry army list.
My idea is that you advance with your hedgehog of Infantry in the center and defend in 3 directions and wait to see how your enemy reacts to this.

He will probably try to overwelm and flank your hedgehog and not just simply attack your Pikemen frontally.
Only Later Swiss would do that.

But he has 2 difficulties.
He has to devide his army into 2 wings
and he has to decide whether he encircels far away or close by your infantry.
If he encircels far away you can send out your own Li to delay this movement and at the same time even move with your hedgehog to the other flank.
That is the moment, when you send your cavaly into close combat. You can attack with your 4 Hc impact along the frontline of your own Sub Generals infantry and send your 3 MC firearm into his rear .... The enemy wing command will be surrounded on three side. On one flank there is the hegdehog, on the other side he is flanked by those MC and the Hc Impact attacks him frontally. He has to retreat or evade or loose his units.
Once you move forwards beyond you Sub Generals Infantry command....you could turn this infantry command to the opposite direction and use it to defend against the other enemy wing.
To make it even more clear. If your enemy moves all his army around the flank of your hegdehog and even does not protect his camp, you might just attack with your cavalry through the center and then turn around your Central infantry Command to face the rear.
I am not sure whether this battle plan will works out, but at least it is a good plan against enemy cavalry armies Very Happy
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 11:45 am    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:
I would recommend a little change in organisation.

Your 1 corps will still have 2 groups to move,
but your 2nd Corps will be infantry only,


Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht Pikeniere @11 33
2 Bewaffnete schwerer Ritterschlag @ 13 26
2 Leichter Lanzenreiter schwerer Kavallerieschlag @ 10 20
1 Söldner-Armbrustschützen mittelmäßig @ 5 5
1 Söldner-Armbrust der leichten Infanterie @ 4 4
1 Söldner der leichten Infanterie-Bogen @ 4 4

1 Gewöhnlicher General eingeschlossen @ -3 -3
1 Bewaffneter Schwerer Ritter @11 11
3 Landsknecht-Pikeniere @11 33
1 Bogenschützen-Söldner Mittelmäßig @5 5
2 Handschützen Leichte Infanterie-Feuerwaffe @4 8

1 Gewöhnlicher General eingeschlossen @-3 -3
2 Men-at-Arms Schwerer Ritterschlag @13 26
1 Leichter Lanzenreiter Schwerer Kavallerieschlag @10 10
1 Berittene Handschützen MC-Feuerwaffe @9 9

1 Befestigtes Lager @6 6
22 Einheiten 200 Punkte


Seriously folks, how good is this? A Landsknecht list in proper German! Wink

I shall ponder the adjustment. Smile
So you've moved the central heavy cav impact into the 1st corp, leaving the 2nd corp with no mounted. This undoubtedly strengthens the 1st corps, and makes managing the 2nd corp easier for its ordinary commander, but there is now only the Bowmen and Light infantry handgunners to counter enemy mounted shooting/delaying troops. Perhaps some units in the 3rd corp nearby might be able to assist if required.

Thanks!
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