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238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts
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KevinD
Signifer


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 307
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 1:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
….LC Bw are only 2 better (lose Cav too, but add another if armed with javelins or Impact).)


I do not think that the light inflict the disorder for catching evaders, nor do they reduce them to zero, so it is generally an even fight, no armour and 2 v 3 cohesion. If gets even messier if they do not kill, or at least win, and caught troops turn round.

Cav +1
Light horse 0+1 for rear

HC impact in with knights is very sound advice. I pretty much always do this is if I expect to meet cavalry who will shoot and evade.


Thanks for spotting this Mike! You are right. I wasn’t really thinking about LC when I wrote this, only that they were worse than Cav Impact at this.
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ALEXANDER
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Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 2:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:

Seriously folks, how good is this? A Landsknecht list in proper German! Wink
!


In fact its just a bad google translation.
Ritterschlag actually means "the accolade"

Germans would probably translate "Heavy Knight impact"
with "Schwere Schockritter"
Very Happy Very Happy
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 3:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I know you not wish to play your Landknechts as Pikemen mediocre, but....this could be an Allied corps of Burgundian Ordonnance for your Medieval Germans

Ordinary General included allied -6
1 Heavy Knight impact* 13 or Foot Knight @12*
3 Low Country Pikemen mediocre @8 24
2 Ordonnance Archer Longbowmen @ 8 16

6 units for just 46/47 points !
Optional: 1additional Light infantry firearm @4

The 2 units of Longbowmen are much better than your own bowmen or Handgunners and the single Li could be placed in an ambush (to avoid becoming unreliable)
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 4:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
1 Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
4 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 40
1 Medium Cavalry firearm @9 9
3 Light infantry crossbow @4 12

1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Heavy knight @11 11
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8

1 Ordinary Burgundian General included allied @-6 -6
1 Heavy Knight impact @ 13 13
3 Low Country pikemen mediocre @8 24
2 ordonnance Archer Longbow @8 16
1 Light infantry firearm @4 4

24 units 200pts
Scouting +1
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MC_Delicatessen
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Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 04, 2022 8:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Great thread:) I’ve made quite a few Med Ger lists - and love the Landsknechts, esp as we are spoilt in 15mm by the Khurasan and Legio figures.

I would not use an ordinary included with pike, cav and LMI. A Ft Kn general is great but as soon as you engage the foot, the cav and bow will be paralysed. Make it unreliable instead - might unreliability also be appropriate for flouncy shirted mercenaries that can be turned by the highest bidder?!!

Unreliable commands with LI out front. You could have two unreliable commands here. Go on. Live on the edge!

The other thing I don’t like is so many pike and included generals makes exploiting any wins really hard due to CPs. 

I like the idea of the longbow to confuse the enemy. I also like the MC in the brilliant command as they are potentially very cost effective melee support if you can find a flank. 
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Snowcat
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Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
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MessagePosté le: Ven Aoû 05, 2022 7:06 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
But why have an unreliable general? What is the advantage, other than saving points? (Yes it would be quite good thematically, so this has an amusing appeal...but other than saving points, why?)

I recently moved the heavy cavalry impact out of my 2nd corps, so that corps is all infantry with the included general. The 3rd corps is all mounted with the included general. The 1st corps is mixed, with the brilliant general.

Alexander is very good at army composition. Smile But there shall be no mediocre pikes or longbowmen in my army!

Cheers
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MC_Delicatessen
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MessagePosté le: Ven Aoû 05, 2022 9:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Smile 

Exactly, saving points. Esp if you are on 199 then an unreliable gives you an extra LI. Also if you are not sure about including a general then unreliable is a good option - esp if you have a light inf screen, and esp if you are likely to defend and/or the unreliable command is central. Some risk of course;)
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 06, 2022 1:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Food for thought, thanks.

For the time being, I shall aim to keep my chaps sufficiently well paid that they may continue strutting around like peacocks! But you never know what the future may hold...

Cheers
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MC_Delicatessen
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 06, 2022 8:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I enjoyed this thread a lot and had a go based on your brief of late list, pike not mediocre, no LB and included commanders:

Competent included
2 Men at arms* … Heavy knight
2 Teutonic knights … Heavy knight impact elite
1 Mounted HG … Medium cavalry firearm
2 Militia skirmishers … Light infantry crossbow
Brilliant unreliable
1 Men at arms … Knight on foot
2 Pikemen … Pikemen
2 Militia skirmishers … Light infantry bow
1 Militia skirmishers … Light infantry firearm
2 Mercenary crossbow … Crossbowmen
1 Canton militia … Medium spearmen
2 Mounted xbow … Medium cavalry crossbow
Ordinary included
1 Men at arms* … Knight on foot
2 Pikemen … Pikemen
1 Militia crossbow … Crossbowmen mediocre
1 Mercenary crossbow … Crossbowmen


I will try this next time I have a medieval game. The idea is lifted from the ramblings of whatsisname's podcast where the three commands have clear roles: attack, confuse, die. Initiative is very low so will almost certainly defend. I would try for the coast and village and be quite happy with one or two patches of rough, even a difficult like a marsh. Command one obviously piles in. Command 3 is to die slowly - even in terrain, an included footknight will take time to die. Crossbow mediocre are great at dying in my experience! I would have made them normal but the points elsewhere meant this sacrifice.

Command 2 may be unreliable, but it is almost certain to be deployed central, with LI out front, and the enemy is going to have a hard time avoiding triggering it - if it rolls hesitant. Command 2 can be two or three groups: the three mediums and the threat of the MC should be enough to at least hold some rough. The MC can cause confusion early in the game, evade and hopefully be available for melee support - TBH still waiting to see MC melee support in rough - it's coming and when it does it is gonna be beautiful! Some MC and Xbow shooting combinations hopefully, though I haven't made this work before!

There are quite a few ambush options with 5 LI, and there is a lot of shooting potential. When I've played with similar medieval armies I have probably lost crossbowmen too easily too early in the game - so I will take care with the two Xbow in command 2. There are 23 units here. No fortified camp as I figure this army will be close to the base line and there are lots of LI, MC and LMI that can end up behind the battle line and defend the camp - any LC are gonna get crossbowed trying!


*edited to fix the LI from all Xbow;)
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 06, 2022 11:16 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
4 LMi
5 Li
3 MC crossbow
1 Medium spearmen

13 auxiliary units??

In addition...
Do you really prefer to have a brilliant Sub General unreliable?

If your C-C would be brilliant he could spend 2 Cps
to make his Sub reliable again.
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borkil63
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 06, 2022 12:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
But why have an unreliable general? What is the advantage, other than saving points? (Yes it would be quite good thematically, so this has an amusing appeal...but other than saving points, why?)

I recently moved the heavy cavalry impact out of my 2nd corps, so that corps is all infantry with the included general. The 3rd corps is all mounted with the included general. The 1st corps is mixed, with the brilliant general.

Alexander is very good at army composition. Smile But there shall be no mediocre pikes or longbowmen in my army!

Cheers


Dont under estimated (sorry for my bad english) médiocre pikemen. In one of m'y médiéval army, i have 3 pk médiocre flanked by 2 knight on foot. And in front of each pk, 1 light arty.
For 66 pts only, 8 bases. 5 for fight after thé arty could make easily lost at thé knight on foot or mounted ennemy.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 07, 2022 3:06 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
*they're working on me with this mediocre pike idea*

Hmm....

Wink
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MC_Delicatessen
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 07, 2022 10:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:
4 LMi
5 Li
3 MC crossbow
1 Medium spearmen

13 auxiliary units??

In addition...
Do you really prefer to have a brilliant Sub General unreliable?

If your C-C would be brilliant he could spend 2 Cps
to make his Sub reliable again.


Good points, could drop a xbow and one LI for another pike easily. 

And command 3 could be ordinary included unreliable. (Though I still think there’s extra risk here - if the big central command is hesitant the enemy will trigger it very quickly - but a smaller flank command might be avoided and be a problem, and rely on the dice).
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 07, 2022 7:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Unreliable commanders are a really bad deal overall. You need a really compelling reason to bring one IMO.

If the take your main/central command out of action they give your opponent a head start or working your flanks.

They can give your opponent a head start in seizing key terrain or pinning you towards your baseline.

For the defender it is not quite as bad as the attacker will usually have the initiative and he may well come within 4 UDs of non-ambushers or trigger an ambush within 1UD before you dice for the unreliable.

If you flank march with unreliable troops they will take at least twice as long (on average) to bring such troops on if they go unreliable.

If you are only risking 2-4 (cheap) units then the 3-4 point payback for a 1/6 risk of having a command sit out 1-4 turns might be more justifiable.

In a one off game taking the 1/6 risk of this happening might not seem so bad. Over multiple games (such as a tournament) the odds of getting unlucky in at least one game inevitably go up. In general you are much better off dropping a single Pike to mediocre from ordinary to get the extra 3 points if you desperately need them rather than taking an unreliable general.

I would really only consider an unreliable/ally general when it is an ally that gives you a substantial additional capability your main army otherwise lacks - again more useful n a one off game or multi list tournament when you can surprise your opponent by bringing a novel troop type he was not expecting and might not be ready to deal with. If your opponent knows you will have this capability it’s utility drops somewhat as he can begin to counter it by altering his terrain selection, overall battle plan, etc. In this example taking the Burgundian ally might be sensible if you want unique units they can provide; an unreliable Brilliant general leadingbyour main command just seems foolish IMO.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 07, 2022 7:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:
Foot Knight costs 12 points.
So I assume your Foot Knight in your second corps is in fact a Heavy Knight dismounted (3 cohesion points)




If they are paid as foot knights, they have 4 cohesion point.
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