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238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts
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Snowcat
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Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 2:03 am    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
c.1515 (ish)

238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Competent General @3 3
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight armour impact@13 26
1 Mounted crossbowman MC Crossbow @9 9
2 Light infantry crossbow @4 8
79
1 Competent General @3 3
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight armour impact @13 26
1 Mounted crossbowman MC Crossbow @9 9
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8
79
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
3 Light lancers Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
36
1 Fortified camp @6 6
20 units 200pts

I like the look and feel of this army. Small but nasty. Possibly too small?
I split the pikemen into 2 commands, along with the men-at-arms, so that both commands could go hunting (with their support troops) and not be easily isolated/denied by the enemy in monotype commands, i.e. all pike in 1 command, all knights in the other. The third micro-command is there to add support to whichever of the other 2 needs it most when deploying the army. A form of refused flank/echelon formation might work with this small army.

Ideally I'd prefer a few extra (22+) units, but I thought I'd post the list 'as-is' to get your thoughts.

Cheers
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Richard Young
Archer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 9:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
21 units with fortified camp...
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 1:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Oh yeah, I never really think of that as a unit.

21 units. Still too small?
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KevinD
Centurion


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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 3:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There are a few ways I usually think about army size.

One is does it break too easily? 21 is certainly in the average range, if on the lower end of average. With a fortified camp you have less to worry about there as you opponent can’t pick up 4 CPs with a quick LC raid. HKn and Pk are tough to kill. MC, HC Impact and LI are much more fragile, so be careful not to fritter them away.

Another way of considering it is heavy units that can inflict losses on the enemy. Sixteen such units is slightly above average which is good, and except the MC, none are weak here and many are quite good.

Finally, is the army wide enough to prevent an opponent from enveloping it (or better yet, to envelope the enemy)? This depends partially on terrain but also will you be using the LI to screen other troops or will they be available to operate in (difficult ideally) terrain on your flanks. If the LI screens the Pk or Kn then you are sixteen units wide which is middling, it will be fine many times, but often enough you will find opponents getting around you. If you are very fast and aggressive you might be able to win before this is an issue. (Turtling up in your games is another option but without MI or LI Javs you might not do so well adopting that plan, plus it’s boring.)
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 4:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
c.1515 (ish)

238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Competent General @3 3
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight armour impact@13 26
1 Mounted crossbowman MC Crossbow @9 9
2 Light infantry crossbow @4 8
79
1 Competent General @3 3
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight armour impact @13 26
1 Mounted crossbowman MC Crossbow @9 9
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8
79
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
3 Light lancers Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
36
1 Fortified camp @6 6


So the problem i see is you have the Light lancers on one side and likely not in the center. For this design i would. take one corps and make it the center or double secure flanks corps. So i would drop the MC from that one. Actually consider included this general. The two foot corps really have to cooperate. They are not going to separate by even 5 UD.

Now larger I do not care for the light lancers. In the medieval period anything they can catch will be better or more numerous. You need to hold them tight. I would happily close on them with a corp of 5 HC Bw and 2 LC I think you need an LC here.

More globally i also think you need at least 1 Foot XB. Your knights are distributed so they can't chase a foe beyond reach of the landsknechts. One design feature i often use is a foot knight included general between two pike. That block of three is pretty decent against all comers and you can get a little effciency for no real structure issue.
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ALEXANDER
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Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 5:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Something is wrong with the included General. Inkluced generals must be knights not Hc impact.
In addition I prefer 1 brilliant General instead of 2 competent

I play swiss and I like your list.

Perhaps you should reduce the numbers of MC crossbow
and use the english Longbowmen or a militis bowmen
I think a longbowmen can be a very good in some terrain (Fields)

4 units of pikemen in 2 lines are perfect
You can easlly deploy by shifting right and left.
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ALEXANDER
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Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 31, 2022 7:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
How do you like this alternative

Competent General Included* 0
2 Heavy Knight impact 13 26
4 Pikenmen mediocre 8 32
2 Li crossbow 4

Ordinary General included* -3
2 Foot Knight* 12 24
2 Pikenen mediocre 8 16
2 Li bow 4 8
1 Medium Swordmen Longbow 10

Competent General included* 0
2 Heavy Knight impact* 13 26
2 Li crossbow 4 8
3 Hc Impact 10 30
1 MC crossbow 9

Fortified Camp 6
Units : 24
Scouting +1
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 12:52 am    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
Great replies, thanks. I've modified my list according to some suggestions already and made what looks to me a more formidable combination.

Alexander: great list. Sadly, not an option for me as I'm aiming for super-late period on this to squeeze actual landsknechts in fancy clothing into it. And definitely not mediocre pikemen to represent them. So for my army, I'm around 1515 AD.

Here's my latest:

238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Competent General @3 3
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 26
3 Light infantry crossbow @4 12
74
1 Competent General included @0 0
1 Foot Knight @11 11
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Handgunners MI Firearm @7 14
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8
66
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 26
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight @11 22
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
54
1 Fortified camp @6 6
22 units 200pts

An option with the MI Handgunners is to split them between the 1st and 2nd commands for extra flexibility, rather than both in the central 2nd command. One of the LI in the 1st command could then be moved to the 2nd command instead.

I'm anticipating comments re the included competent general in the 2nd (central) command... Smile

Cheers
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ALEXANDER
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Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 10:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Foot Knight costs 12 points.
So I assume your Foot Knight in your second corps is in fact a Heavy Knight dismounted (3 cohesion points)

I am very sorry that you do not like to use the english archer.
though it would be possible to use it together with the Pikemen (from 1450)
It is the perfect troop type to protect the flanks of your pikemen towards light or difficult terrrain.

At first I was surprised you do not want to use Hc impact
(as they are fast), but the Heavy Knights are just 1 point more expensive and they have their own advantages compared to Hc impact. and you still have 1 MC firearm with speed 4.

If you do not use the english archer I would prefer using Militia Bowmen instead of Handgunners.
Bowmen are better against MC or other bowmen and longbowmen.
...and I would split the 2 bowmen/Handgunners and add 1 unit to each infantry corps. ...or use just 1 unit.

Did you think about to add 1 warwagon xbow to a infantry command to protect its flank against enemy cavalry?
...or Burgundian Ordonnace Allies?

Perhaps you should even use a unprotected camp and sacrify it .... and avoid an enemy rear attack on your pikemen.

As Kevin D already said... you have to be fast and agressive.
THEREFORE it is usefull not to mix too many different troop type in 1 corps.

For example...
A excluded Brilliant General can rush forward with your Pikemen in the first round and then separate himself from the pikemen group in the second round to move the bowmen / longbowmen into a terrain or to bring forward his reserve

A included ordinary General as Foot knight can advanve with the second corps of Pikeman.

The third ordinary general included can advance with mounted knights impact.

When it comes to close combat you will have 2 ordinary generals fighting in the front while the free Brilliant General is still able to command the reserves or flanks. And as a last step, you might even through your Brilliant General into close Combat with a mounted Knight impact from the reserve
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 12:33 pm    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
Thanks Alexander, lots to think about there. Smile

Good catch on the cost of the foot knight in the 2nd command. That was for the included general's element. So I'm 1 point over limit, will remove 'impact' from one of the men-at-arms in the 3rd command. Now I'm at 199 pts.

238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Mercenary Bowmen @7 7
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8
80
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Foot Knight @12 12
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
1 Handgunners MI Firearm @7 7
3 Light infantry crossbow @4 12
61
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 13
3 Men-at-arms Heavy knight @11 33
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
52
1 Fortified camp @6 6
22 units 199pts


I'm not taking the English longbowmen because they're only for 1479 (which is a bit cheesy) and well before the time of my army: 1515. (Concept is King.)

Not entirely sure if the reasons for taking Bowmen instead of Handgunners is enough of a reason to take them, but I've replaced 1 of the 2 handgunners with a bowmen unit.

An option at present is to remove the fortified camp, and take another unit of bowmen or crossbowmen, returning me to 200pts. Not sure if it's a better idea though. The war wagon crossbow idea is pretty expensive and would mean losing something decent to acquire it. Possibly 1 Pikemen from the 2nd command...?

I definitely like this army. And yes, it needs to be used aggressively. Just needs a couple more tweaks, with some of your ideas.

Cheers
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 3:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
Thanks Alexander, lots to think about there. Smile

So I'm 1 point over limit, will remove 'impact' from one of the men-at-arms in the 3rd command. Now I'm at 199 pts.



NO the impactsis very important.

PS I ran some mediocre landsknechts arguing that we didn't have their full pay quota and they were grumpy.
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran


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Messages: 171
MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 7:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Do you want to optimize this army for a tournament against all possible opponents, e.g. also Timurid.
.. or do you play a historical "Italian Wars" campaign with your friends?

The biggest problem of ordinary or elite Pikemen armies is ...that nobody risks fighting them frontally.

A single unit of Lc at 3,5 Ud distance will stop your "aggresive" advance and reduce the speed of your pikemen to 2 UD.
Your Knights cannot attack an enemy at 3,5 UD
and even your MC firearm cannot risk attacking 3 enemy Lc javelin or 3 MC bow

This is the reason why you need some bowmen and HC impact mixed into your frontline to drive away those enemy skirmishers. Once the enemy has evaded outside tactical zone your pikemen can continue to advance forward with 3 Ud speed.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 01, 2022 11:36 pm    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
Back to the tweaking board then! Wink

Ideally the army would be designed vs all-comers, but I don't play in tournaments. It's not specifically for an Italian Wars campaign either. When I design armies, I just go for a particular period look/flavour and stick to it. If that means I miss out on a few troop types, so be it. Like I said, concept is king. (Folks who play 'Hordes of the Things' would appreciate this even more.)

Here we are with a sprinkling of HC impact, and some other adjustments.


238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mercenary Bowmen @7 7
2 Light infantry firearm @4 8
90
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Foot Knight @12 12
2 Landsknecht Pikemen @11 22
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Handgunners MI Firearm @7 7
1 Mercenary Bowmen @7 7
1 Light infantry crossbow @4 4
59
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
3 Men-at-arms Heavy knight impact@13 39
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
45
1 Fortified camp @6 6
21 units 200pts


Thanks again. Smile

Cheers
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 02, 2022 10:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think we're slowly getting to the bottom line. The army is already very balanced and can defend itself in any situation. Now it's all about fine tuning.

I personally think 2 Bowmen plus 1 Handgunner is too much (mainly because you also have 3 Li +1 Mc firearm+ fortified camp/ a third of your army consists of auxiliaries!)
But on the other hand I do not like to reduce the number of units to 20.

I would omit the Handgunner and try to get 1 more melee unit. You could save even more points by demoting the Bowmen to mediocre, omitting 1 Li or the fortified camp or the Foot Knight or one of the Heavy K ights impact ... or 1 Heavy Knight instead of 1 Heavy Knight impact or include all 3 generals. or actually set up the Foot Knight (12p) as a Heavy Knight (11p) and then dismount him at deployment.

On the other hand, do you need more fighting power, i.e. 1 more Pikemen, or Heavy Knight (to dismount with only 3 cohesion points) or Hc impact or the Warwagon? ....or if nothing else is possible... 1 mounted MC firearm instead of the Mi Handgunners.

A further question is the division between the 3 corps. As you can see, you now have different troops in each corps. This makes your army slow. Maybe you should give all heavy infantry to the brilliant general after all.

This fine Tuning is something ....you will try and finally find out the best solution, when you actually play your army in a battle
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 02, 2022 12:26 pm    Sujet du message: 238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts Répondre en citant
Yes, it isn't easy. Smile But at least this list gives plenty of options, so there is always scope for modification as you just showed again.

(You would actually keep 2 x Bowmen rather than 1 x Bowmen & 1 x Handgunners?)

I see your point re each corps becoming more complicated, but part of that was including the HC impact into them, along with the Bowmen. I agree about slightly too many auxiliaries, probably 1-2 too many.

(I fear if I give all the HI to the Brilliant General - or to just 1 corps irrespective of which general commands it - I risk that corps and all that lovely HI in it being delayed/denied in some clever way by the opponent. Having them in 2 corps makes avoiding them a lot harder.)

I'll see what I can come up with. Smile

Thanks again.

Here we go...
238 - Late Medieval German - Landsknecht - 200pts

1 Brilliant General @6 6
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
2 Men-at-arms heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mercenary bowmen mediocre @5 5
2 Light infantry crossbow @4 8
88
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
1 Foot knight @12 12
3 Landsknecht pikemen @11 33
1 Light lancer heavy cavalry impact @10 10
1 Mercenary bowmen @7 7
1 Light infantry firearm @4 4
63
1 Ordinary General included @-3 -3
2 Men-at-arms heavy knight impact@13 26
1 Men-at-arms heavy knight @11 11
1 Mounted handgunners MC firearm @9 9
43
1 Fortified camp @6 6
21 units 200pts

Still slow but a bit tougher.

Cheers
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