Art De La Guerre

[daveallen]

This question arose in a game yesterday. Can a unit which must conform in its turn also rally?

A unit had been charged in the flank and lost a CP in melee. In its turn the unit must conform. Does that prevent it from rallying?

The rule:

[KevinD]

Good question.

I would have assumed this (preventing rallies before conforming) is what the say/implied but it does seem to explicitly say this is not permitted.

Let’s see what the Powers That Be say…

[daveallen]

It's implicit you can rally before an involuntary move so it would be illogical for rallying to be prohibited before an involuntary conform.

This is, perhaps, one of those cases where the now outlawed Oxford comma would come in handy.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence

[Hazelbark]

NO conform and rally unless light troops.
p55 rallying. opening paragraph.

You may not rally and charge. Therefore a rally on a unit that will be forced to make an uncontrolled charge is 3 CP. All very explicit.

[Za Otlichiye]

I think this was discussed before and the consensus was that there should be a comma between voluntarily move and conform.

[daveallen]

[Hazelbark]

Its not me "adding" anything. I am just reading.


I get what you want...but I do not see any special dispensation for incomplete conformation from opponents previous turn. Do you see support for that anywhere? I don't recall it.


Now as for you suspecting Light troops might be more restricted than my open ended statement might suggest, consider two rules:
p 53, 3rd bullet
p 55, last sentence first paragraph. (I know you were looking at this already, i just cite it for completeness)

It seems to me that those are both fairly all encompassing exceptions for light troops. What do you think?

[daveallen]

Thanks Dan,

what I "wanted" was a clear understanding of the rules. Your original reply didn't really help with that. This was much better.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence

[Hazelbark]

[SteveR]

A similar but slightly different situation came up yesterday in a game.

I had a unit of HC with two lost cohesion points and an enemy Bow unit with a single cohesion loss, and an attached general, in corner to corner contact with it.

In his turn my opponent attempted and succeeded in rallying. After this he then involuntarily conformed to the front of my cavalry. (both of our situations were pretty desperate)

He threw in his general making it an even roll (I had a unit in simple support)

He rolled 3 higher than I did IIRC. Killed the unit, the one behind it and won the game.

My fault - I was aware of the question but forgot the answer and rationalized that movements can come before conformation after all like Dave said.

So, for want of an Oxoford comma, the battle was lost.... woe is me.

[Za Otlichiye]

Given the recent ruling that a unit in non-melee contact but in the ZoC of an enemy is not obliged to conform or move, does this mean it could rally (on a +4)?

[Za Otlichiye]

Note that there is more text about adjusting and rallying on page 39.
Also on page 40 a unit burst through may not then rally.

Is there any involuntary movement other than shifting, adjustment, uncontrolled charge, or driven back from a flank march? LI moving away from illegal conformance?

If there any voluntary conformation other than artillery already in contact or units completing conformance into penalizing terrain?

[Neep]

I've been exploring this question. It's clear the idea is that you either choose to move or to rally, but you must still make mandatory moves if they come up. What's less clear is how conformance should be treated. I think "A unit that attempts to rally cannot voluntarily move or conform..." is unfortunately too vague to answer the questions.

I see these as possibly involuntary moves: adjustment and shift; uncontrolled charge; pursuit; flank march entry/driven back.
Adjustment and shift - these explicitly prevent subsequent rallly for heavies and allow rally for lights.
Uncontrolled charge - even if you auto-rally it is an "order" so you will hold. If you do charge, it comes at the end of the movement phase, so you have no opportunity to rally. You never have the choice.
Pursuit - this is mandatory for impetuous and elephants and optional for most others. Pursuit is a "move". The text implies if you rallied, you may not optionally pursue. Unconvinced that is the intention.
Flank march entry/driven back - I believe you must use the corps CPs to enter, so you must move at least one unit even if you decide to abandon the rest;-) Looks like it's mandatory. Nothing to rally with a flank march, but if driven back past an enemy unit lots of disorder. May you rally? I think that's daft, and maybe page 11 justifies "That's daft!" as a ruling.

As for conformance: after charge/pursuit/move to support; when incomplete; when enemy on flank/rear; other contact.
Charge/pursuit/move to support - already moved.
When incomplete - must be resolved immediately. Seems involuntary, and I'm very sympathetic to Dave's point that due to the enemy making unideal contact, you would have to forgo an opportunity to rally, when if the enemy did match up, you would not. It certainly seems reasonable to allow rally here.
When enemy on flank/rear - not resolved immediately but you must always conform. Since you were caught in the flank/rear, not unreasonable to be denied a chance to rally.
Other contact - as you have the opportunity to move away, it seems inherently voluntary, although moving would also prevent rally. There may also be the possibility of putting the enemy into melee with another unit and avoiding the conformance. But if any conformance will prevent rally, it would have to be this one.
Could you rally because you have not conformed (yet) and then conform because you must? Certainly not, as this would make the restriction meaningless. If you have a conformation pending, you cannot rally.
Note that in certain circumstance (frozen by an enemy ZoC) conformance might become pending only when circumstances change.
To sum up, the distinction between voluntary and involuntary moves doesn't seem to matter, while the distinction between voluntary and involuntary conformance is obscure.
Not sure much is gained by forbidding rally and conformance. If you can spend the CP when a unit is in melee, why not when conforming into combat? It would smooth things out a bit.