Art De La Guerre

[elsleyra]

Questions from a new player:

Am I correct in understanding the following?
1. A target unit completely in open terrain benefits from the 'target is in cover' modifier if the line of sight passes through a plantation, wood or village even if the shooter is not in cover.
2. If any part of the shooting edge of a shooter that is not light infantry is in a plantation, wood or village (even just on the edge), the target benefits from both the 'target is in cover' modifier and the 'shooting from cover' modifier ... regardless of the terrain in which the target is located.

Thanks in anticipation,

Ron

References:

Shooting modifiers (p58) include: -1 for each of
Target is in cover or behind a fortification
and
Shooting from cover or from difficult terrain except if shooter is LI

Cover from shooting (p70) includes:
A target unit benefits from cover if the line of sight of the shooter passes through the terrain
A unit, except light infantry, is penalised when shooting if part of its shooting edge is inside terrain that gives cover
A unit located just on the edge of a terrain is considered to be inside the terrain: it gains protection from cover but suffers a shooting penalty

Line of Sight (p57) includes
To have a valid line of sight a unit must be able to trace two straight lines between the two corners of its shooting edge and a singe point on one edge of the target's base. These lines must not be blocked by terrain or other friendly or enemy units.

[elsleyra]

Silence was the stern reply

[Dickstick]

I'll try for you.
Both 1 and 2 are not target is in cover..
The shooting through cover is for the cover the target is in and not the cover the shooter is in.

The shooter in cover is for the cover the shooter is in.

Try not to over think it , otherwise you get all shooting involving cover to be a minus two each time
_________________
Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[elsleyra]

Thanks for responding. It is much appreciated.

So, am I correct in now understanding that:

1. Range permitting, shooting from one side to another of (ie shooting through) a village, wood or plantation is done without penalty if both the shooter and the target are in clear terrain.
2. When each of the shooter and the target are in a village, wood or plantation and the line of sight ends in the covering terrain occupied by the target, a -2 modifier applies.

Thanks in anticipation,

Ron

[Za Otlichiye]

Two heavy units A and 1 shooting at each other:

I. All open - no mods.

II. Both in woods, within 1UD - unit A -2; unit 1 -2

III. Unit A at edge of woods, unit 1 in open - unit A -1; unit 1 -1

IV. Unit A and unit 1 at edges of woods - unit A -2; unit 1 -2

Now...

V. Unit A and unit 1 separated by 1UD of woods between them

Note that this is unlikely to happen as woods must be at least 3x2 UDs and spikey forms are of dubious legality. Occasionally LOS might pass across a corner.
I don't see that it makes sense that the units are in cover if they are in the woods, but not if they are just behind it. So I think it is:
- unit A -1; unit 1 -1

VI. Unit A in woods not at edge, unit 1 in open - unit A -2; unit 1 -1

For the most part it's oddly symmetrical, at least when both are heavy shooters.

[elsleyra]

My thanks. That is both comprehensive and readily understood.

I also now appreciate the 1UD limit on shooting through terrain that provides cover. When trying to chase down the issue of 'Are there any limits on how much cover I can shoot through?', I'd only looked in 'Shooting ranges'. 'SHOOTING LIMITATIONS', 'Line of sight', 'Shooting zone and range', 'VISIBILITY & AMBUSH' and 'COVER FROM SHOOTING" and had missed the point under 'Protection Modifiers'.

Regards,

Ron

[Za Otlichiye]

Keep in mind it's only my interpretation
I guess I should add one more case:

VII. Unit A has left half in woods, unit 1 in open with LOS to point of A in open - unit A -2, unit 1 no mods

And finally, I have a vague memory that one can nominally line the edge of terrain, even if it's not physically possible = possibly in discussion of river banks. It's something you would need to do to avoid argument.

[elsleyra]

Thanks again.

So, what I see is that your interpretation is aligned with my previous understanding, with the exception of not needing to count the extra -1 for shooting through cover when shooting from the edge of cover. All good.

Less good is that you've noted "it's only my interpretation" and it's different from the interpretation offered by Dickstick. Is it possible to get an official position on the correct interpretation?

Thanks in anticipation,

Ron

[KevinD]

Interesting. I hadn’t realized the -1 for shooting from cover/difficult was cumulative with the -1 for shooting at targets in cover.

Do you get the -1 for shooting at troops in cover if the unit was not actually in cover but only behind terrain that provides cover? A literal reading might suggest you do not.

[Za Otlichiye]

Well that was my interpretation - on the grounds that it would be silly to have the benefit if you were just inside the back edge of a woods, and not if you were just behind it. But thinking on it further, perhaps the thought is that the projectiles are arcing over the trees and falling into uncovered troops, so perhaps V is no mods, VI is -1 for both, and VII is A -1 and 1 no mod. I think that is in agreement with Dick.

[elsleyra]

It appears there are two possible interpretations.

1. Per Dickstick’s offering and KevinD’s comment “Do you get the -1 for shooting at troops in cover if the unit was not actually in cover but only behind terrain that provides cover? A literal reading might suggest you do not.” ie the “in cover” part of the shooting modifier “Target in cover or behind a fortification” (p58) only applies if the target unit is located in terrain that provides cover.

2. The “in cover” part of the shooting modifier applies if the line of sight passes through terrain that provides cover, regardless of the terrain where it ends. This interprets “Target in cover” as a concise form of something like “Target is provided cover by terrain” and is based on the statements “The cover given by terrain or fortifications is effective only if the line of sight of the shooter passes through the terrain or the fortification.” (p59) and “Terrain can provide cover ... A target benefits from cover if the line of sight of the shooter passes through the terrain.” (p70), supplemented by the view that if the target had to be located in a piece of terrain that provides cover then the above two statements would include “ends inside” rather than “passes through” or would note that the target must be located in the terrain that provides cover.

I think each of the interpretations is reasonable and defensible, but as they give different outcomes a choice needs to be made.

I also note that if alternative 1. is correct, a view would also be required on the case where a target is partly in terrain that provides cover, the shooter has a valid line of sight to a point on the target that is not in that terrain, but that line of sight passes through the terrain. Think of a unit partly in a village close to a corner with a shooter just around the corner ... which was the circumstance that started me on this enquiry in the first place.

Is it possible to get an official position on the correct interpretation?

Thanks in anticipation,

Ron

[Za Otlichiye]

I have, as Dick warned, over-thought this.
There are two related concepts, LOS through cover and the protection of cover, and I've confused them.
The protection of cover is overhead, so targets in villages, plantations, and woods get a -1 benefit.
LOS can only go through 1UD of cover (or crestline and embankments). If LOS is to a point on a target's edge in cover, then the target is in cover. (Hmm, that would mean even if the entire front edge of the target was in the open, it still might be in cover if shooting at a flank/rear covered edge?).
If any part of the shooting edge of the shooter is in villages, plantations, woods, or difficult terrain, and not LI, then there is a -1 penalty.

[Mike Bennett]

[Za Otlichiye]

Page 70 2d bullet. I should have said "shooting" edge, and so have corrected it.

[Za Otlichiye]

Does anyone think riverbanks affect LOS like a gully?