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Charging with a group
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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MarkC
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Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 12, 2023 5:07 am    Sujet du message: Charging with a group Répondre en citant
Consider two opposing groups of HI, but the lines are not parallel but are instead converging. At one end of the line, the enemy with within 2UD. At the other end of the line, the enemy is within 3UD.

One group charges the other. What happens?

Citation:

p42. Additional points....only those units of the group that start within charge range conform with the enemy (see p50)
p50. Definition...If the conforming unit is part of the group, other units in the same group may also be moved up to one UD to remain aligned as a group"


The group moves up to the point at which contact is made at the end of the line. At that point the group is split into those that were within 2UD at the start of the charge vs those that were not. Those that were within 2UD at the start of the charge then slide and wheel as a group to conform. What happens with the rest of the group
a) They stop where they are (assuming they have moved at least 1UD)
b) They can keep moving straight ahead up to the limit of their 2UD movement. It part of the same move so no CP are expended.
c) They slide and wheel up to 1UD with the rest of the group but have to stop 1mm short of making contact with the enemy because they were not within 2UD of the enemy at the start of the charge.

Further question.

The charging group is positioned so that only the right hand two units are within 2UD of enemy units. The group slides right and charges. We played it that the units that were 2nd and 3rd from the right got into contact (as they were within 2UD after the slide) and the right most unit ended up in simple support. However after reading the rules I fear we played it wrong. Is the unit 3rd from right not permitted to charge into contact if it started more than 2 UD from any enemy?


Slightly different scenario

If the scenario was changed so that all the enemy was within 2UD of the charging unit, but the charging group had an overlap of the target group. After contacting the enemy would the entire rest of the charging group also wheel to align (up to a move of 1UD)? My reading of the rules is that they would, but I have often seen it played that only one extra unit from the rest of the group would be conformed to provide simple support and those units in the group that would not conform into corner to corner contact can't conform. In an extreme case this could be a group charging a single unit.

Thanks

Mark C
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1601
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 12, 2023 9:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MarkC a écrit:
Consider two opposing groups of HI, but the lines are not parallel but are instead converging. At one end of the line, the enemy with within 2UD. At the other end of the line, the enemy is within 3UD.

One group charges the other. What happens?

Citation:

p42. Additional points....only those units of the group that start within charge range conform with the enemy (see p50)
p50. Definition...If the conforming unit is part of the group, other units in the same group may also be moved up to one UD to remain aligned as a group"


The group moves up to the point at which contact is made at the end of the line. At that point the group is split into those that were within 2UD at the start of the charge vs those that were not. Those that were within 2UD at the start of the charge then slide and wheel as a group to conform. What happens with the rest of the group
a) They stop where they are (assuming they have moved at least 1UD)
b) They can keep moving straight ahead up to the limit of their 2UD movement. It part of the same move so no CP are expended.
c) They slide and wheel up to 1UD with the rest of the group but have to stop 1mm short of making contact with the enemy because they were not within 2UD of the enemy at the start of the charge.

Further question.

The charging group is positioned so that only the right hand two units are within 2UD of enemy units. The group slides right and charges. We played it that the units that were 2nd and 3rd from the right got into contact (as they were within 2UD after the slide) and the right most unit ended up in simple support. However after reading the rules I fear we played it wrong. Is the unit 3rd from right not permitted to charge into contact if it started more than 2 UD from any enemy?


Slightly different scenario

If the scenario was changed so that all the enemy was within 2UD of the charging unit, but the charging group had an overlap of the target group. After contacting the enemy would the entire rest of the charging group also wheel to align (up to a move of 1UD)? My reading of the rules is that they would, but I have often seen it played that only one extra unit from the rest of the group would be conformed to provide simple support and those units in the group that would not conform into corner to corner contact can't conform. In an extreme case this could be a group charging a single unit.

Thanks

Mark C


First Question: option b is correct.

Second Question: See the definition of Charge Range on p42 to see if the unit is in Charge Range. If it is, it can contact the enemy, if not it can't.

Third Question: I'm afraid I don't really understand the question - generally speaking, groups of units who start in charge range of the enemy and then charge that enemy will end up in contact with the enemy. I do however suspect the last bullet under Definition of Conformation on p50 has the answer to the question (even if I don't understand it fully)
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 12, 2023 3:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed Madaxman. Once the movement allowance is reached, the charging units just stop. 

Put simply, units have to be able to make contact with enemy units within their movement allowance in order to charge. (This includes continuing a charge after the first contact is made - p42, additional points 2nd bullet). On contact these units may conform by wheeling and sliding etc, provided they do not exceed their movement allowance, while the others may not advance any further into contact. This may well result in the group being split or even units being displaced. 

However, a unit on the end of such a line may conform into simple support by wheeling forwards, effectively exceeding its allowance. P50, Conformation definition last bullet. Only this unit can conform. 
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 12, 2023 4:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Agreed Madaxman. Once the movement allowance is reached, the charging units just stop. 
However, a unit on the end of such a line may conform into simple support by wheeling forwards, effectively exceeding its allowance. P50, Conformation definition last bullet. Only this unit can conform. 


as long as they start within charge range they can get the extra UD to wheel or slide to line up. page 42 additional points “However only those units of the group that start within charge range will be able to conform with the enemyâ€.

Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Mar Juin 13, 2023 10:39 pm; édité 1 fois
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MarkC
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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Localisation: Australia
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 12, 2023 9:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

However, a unit on the end of such a line may conform into simple support by wheeling forwards, effectively exceeding its allowance. P50, Conformation definition last bullet. Only this unit can conform. 


This is how we've always played it. However reading p50 the last bullet point states "If the conforming unit is part of a group, other units in the group may also be moved up to one UD to remain aligned as a group".

Unless this is overridden somewhere else that only units that end up at least in corner to corner can be moved during conformation, it is suggestive that you could have the whole group could slide and wheel (up to 1 UD) to remain a group even if only one unit was in contact with the enemy.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

Mark C
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 13, 2023 6:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MarkC a écrit:
Ramses II a écrit:

However, a unit on the end of such a line may conform into simple support by wheeling forwards, effectively exceeding its allowance. P50, Conformation definition last bullet. Only this unit can conform. 


This is how we've always played it. However reading p50 the last bullet point states "If the conforming unit is part of a group, other units in the group may also be moved up to one UD to remain aligned as a group".

Unless this is overridden somewhere else that only units that end up at least in corner to corner can be moved during conformation, it is suggestive that you could have the whole group could slide and wheel (up to 1 UD) to remain a group even if only one unit was in contact with the enemy.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

Mark C


You’re quoting p50 correctly, that’s what the rules say so that’s what the rules are! 
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 13, 2023 1:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No, as madax says, you are not missing anything. However, 1UD conformation allows little movement, especially if the lines are more than a few degrees off parallel. 
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