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Flank MArch - Driven Back
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 11:50 am    Sujet du message: Flank MArch - Driven Back Répondre en citant
OK, last one for today. Looking for confirmation here.

[1] When driven back, is the arrival move straight & perpendicular to the base edge as on page 79?
[2] If not driven back, is the arrival the same as an unopposed march?
[3] What happens if it's not the victor's move? (Final bullet says next movement phase not next player's move).
[3] WOW did they mix driven back and repulsed in the same section in the English version?

Thanks.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 5:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
OK, last one for today. Looking for confirmation here.

[1] When driven back, is the arrival move straight & perpendicular to the base edge as on page 79?
[2] If not driven back, is the arrival the same as an unopposed march?
[3] What happens if it's not the victor's move? (Final bullet says next movement phase not next player's move).
[3] WOW did they mix driven back and repulsed in the same section in the English version?

Thanks.


1/ The rules for arrival of driven back flank marches are on p80. There is no requirement I can see in these rules that the move be perpendicular to the table edge.
2/ A flank march which is not driven back arrives in the next turn. I can't see why their arrival would follow any different rules to those on p79 under "arrival of a flank march", mainly on the basis as there are no other special rules provided for the arrival of these sorts of flank marches.
3/ The driven back flank march enters during the next movement phase of the owning player. (first bullet). The driving-back flank march then enters durng the "next movement phase" after that. That will inevitably be in its owners next turn.
4. It would appear that artistic license and a feel for the innate poetry of the English tongue is clearly not yet dead, despite 3 decades of Barkerese. Hoorah!
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 5:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks but:

[1] Look at 3rd bullet p79. The second sentence uses the same phrase as 2nd bullet p80 and appears to "explain" the use of perpendicular.
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 6:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
vexillia a écrit:
OK, last one for today. Looking for confirmation here.
[3] What happens if it's not the victor's move? (Final bullet says next movement phase not next player's move).

3/ The driven back flank march enters during the next movement phase of the owning player. (first bullet). The driving-back flank march then enters durng the "next movement phase" after that. That will inevitably be in its owners next turn.

I can see your logic here. The driving back march follows the driven back march on to the table. But I can't see an "after that" in the text on p80.

Looking at two possible sequences:
Code:
A's movement phase
- Contested flank marches,
- A's flank march driven back
- Nothing arrives

B's movement phase (next movement phase)
- B's victorious flank march arrives on table

A's movement phase (next movement phase of owner of the driven back flank march)
- A's driven back flank march arrives on table

Delaying the arrival of A's driven back flank march until after the arrival of B's flank march would require another turn!
Code:
A's movement phase
- Contested flank marches,
- A's flank march driven back
- Nothing arrives

B's movement phase
- Nothing arrives

A's movement phase (next movement phase of owner of the driven back flank march)
- A's driven back flank march arrives on table

B's movement phase (next movement phase after arrival of driven back flank march)
- B's victorious flank march arrives on table

Or
Code:
A's movement phase
- Contested flank marches,
- B's flank march driven back
- Nothing arrives

B's movement phase (next movement phase of owner of the driven back flank march)
- B's driven back flank march arrives on table

A's movement phase (next movement phase after arrival of driven back flank march)
- A's victorious flank march arrives on table

It's worth noting that the order of arrival of the first option is independent of whoever gets driven back whereas the second option is quicker if B's flank march gets driven back in A's turn.

So which is it really. Confused
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 8:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
Thanks but:

[1] Look at 3rd bullet p79. The second sentence uses the same phrase as 2nd bullet p80 and appears to "explain" the use of perpendicular.


Aaaah - I'd missed that. Then there is a requirement for all flank marches to arrive perpendicular to the edge, as that is stated in that rule.

From how I read it, driven-back flank marches are additionally prohibited from charging also.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 8:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:

I can see your logic here. The driving back march follows the driven back march on to the table. But I can't see an "after that" in the text on p80.


I'm still not sure I see how the use of the word "next" in this sentence, following on as it does after 4 bullet points all describing how and when a driven-back flank march moves onto table, could not mean "next (after that)" ?

Isn't it that
- Each player rolls at the start of their movement phase
- If a flank march succeeds in that roll, and there are two on the same flank, you compare sizes and the smaller one is driven back
- The driven back flank march then arrives in it's owners next movement phase (after the current one).

That will either be the following player-turn (if the active player has the bigger flank march, and it drives back the currently-inactive players flank march), or in the next player-turn after that (if the active player has the smaller flank march)

The player-turn after that is when the bigger flank march arrives.

So, it's basically pot luck as to how much time you have to react. Flank marches are always a lottery after all
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 8:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
vexillia a écrit:

I can see your logic here. The driving back march follows the driven back march on to the table. But I can't see an "after that" in the text on p80.

I'm still not sure I see how the use of the word "next" in this sentence, following on as it does after 4 bullet points all describing how and when a driven-back flank march moves onto table, could not mean "next (after that)" ?

Didn't you say elsewhere that the bullet points weren't necessarily in priority order? 🤔😛
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 9:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The solution to this issues is, assuming that the situation in V4 hasn't changed from V3, given in section 2, paragraph 3 on p73 of the V3 rulebook which states:
Citation:
In the movement phase following the arrival of the flank march that was driven back, the corps making the opposing flank march moves onto the table.

The fact remains that the V4 text is opaque at best and certainly isn't an improvement..
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 11:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
The solution to this issues is, assuming that the situation in V4 hasn't changed from V3, given in section 2, paragraph 3 on p73 of the V3 rulebook which states:
Citation:
In the movement phase following the arrival of the flank march that was driven back, the corps making the opposing flank march moves onto the table.

The fact remains that the V4 text is opaque at best and certainly isn't an improvement..


I suspect someone had argued that “opposing†wasn’t a defined term under v3 so it’s meaning wasn't clear. 

“Next!â€
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 12:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@vexillia, I am not sure what the problem is here and, while you are entitled to your opinion, I think the process is clearer than V3.
The Flank March section contains three sub-sections covering the arrival of a flank march, units fleeing from the arrival of a flank march and what to do (in the unlikely event) where both players have declared flank marches arriving on the same flank. In summary, the victorious force arrives using the "arrival of a flank march" process, while those that are driven back follow the "driving back a flank march" process which has different restrictions as you note.

To answer your questions using a worked example, let us assume that Red and Blue armies both have flank marches arriving on the same flank. Over several turns each player dices unsuccessfully until Red rolls successfully. Following the "arrival of a flank march" process he declares the flank where his forces are arriving and Blue declares that he has a flank march arriving there as well.
The players then switch to the "driving back a flank march" process and compare the forces ;-
  1. If Red has the larger force, Blue is 'driven back'
    • Since it is Red's turn he reverts to the the "arrival of a flank march" process, and the victorious Red flank march units are delayed until the next Red turn following the process as usual.
    • The 'driven back' Blue units arrive in the next (Blue) turn using the "driving back a flank march" process.

  2. If Blue has the larger force,
    • The victorious Blue units arrive in the next (Blue) turn using the normal "arrival of a flank march" process,
    • Red's units are 'driven back' so do not arrive, being delayed until the next Red turn.
In either case, both players have the opportunity to react to the arrival of enemy troops on the specified flank. Also, I do not think there is an error between the two processes. So while the 'driven back' forces are restricted to starting their movement within 5UD of their baseline, they do not have to make a move that is perpendicular to the table edge.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 6:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

[*]If Blue has the larger force,
  • The victorious Blue units arrive in the next (Blue) turn using the normal "arrival of a flank march" process,
  • Red's units are 'driven back' so do not arrive, being delayed until the next Red turn.
[/list]In either case, both players have the opportunity to react to the arrival of enemy troops on the specified flank. Also, I do not think there is an error between the two processes. So while the 'driven back' forces are restricted to starting their movement within 5UD of their baseline, they do not have to make a move that is perpendicular to the table edge.


I've read this several times and all I see is the larger force arriving before the driven back force. Can't be right?
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 8:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Ramses II a écrit:

[*]If Blue has the larger force,
  • The victorious Blue units arrive in the next (Blue) turn using the normal "arrival of a flank march" process,
  • Red's units are 'driven back' so do not arrive, being delayed until the next Red turn.
[/list]In either case, both players have the opportunity to react to the arrival of enemy troops on the specified flank. Also, I do not think there is an error between the two processes. So while the 'driven back' forces are restricted to starting their movement within 5UD of their baseline, they do not have to make a move that is perpendicular to the table edge.


I've read this several times and all I see is the larger force arriving before the driven back force. Can't be right?


Agreed. I think Gavin may have his reds and blues confused here ... the perils of late night posting!

Driven back flank marches arrive in the next movement phase of the owning player to come around after the turn when the dice-for-arrival thing happens
The Driving-back flank march then follows them on in the next movement turn to occur (which, being "next" is the one in the driving-back players turn immediately after the driven-back one has arrived.).
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 9:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
“Next!â€

When a driven back flank march arrives, what happens if, by some fluke, it ends up within 4 UD of enemy WWg or Art?

The options are nothing or as unopposed.
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 11:19 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
“Next!â€

When a driven back flank march arrives, what happens if, by some fluke, it ends up within 4 UD of enemy WWg or Art?

The options are nothing or as unopposed.


Were I asked to rule on this as an umpire, I'd say nothing happens.

The text on p79 about Wagons and Artillery describes their crews "fleeing" being the cause of the unit being eliminated, and the text on p80 says that enemy units do not have to flee from a driven-back flank march.

The challenge faced by any player in managing to get any of their artillery or war wagons into the opponents half of the table and within 4MU of the side edge before a pushed-back enemy flank march arrives there is also so massive and so fleetingly unlikely that it would also feel rather unfair to penalise them for it!
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 11:55 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have always assumed that where both sides have flank marches on the same side of the table, the smaller flank march automatically arrives on Turn 2 and the larger's automatically arrives on turn 3.

Otherwise, what would happen if Larger (call it Red) rolls low numbers each turn, but meanwhile smaller (Blue) rolls a 5 or 6. Is the move onto the table in successive turns triggered when the first of the two flank marches rolls a 5/6 to arrive on table?
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