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Flank MArch - Driven Back
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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vexillia
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 355
Localisation: Warrington, UK
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 12:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Were I asked to rule on this as an umpire, I'd say nothing happens.

So would I if I had to make a choice. I just wondered if it had been ruled on previously.

As a precaution I re-read the corresponding paragraph in V3: just in case (see above). It's so much better. I liked the bit in V3 about avoiding getting within 4UD of enemy if at all possible which has been removed in V4. Nice to see such sensible tactical advice just in case you hadn't spotted the need to do this yourself.

madaxeman a écrit:
The challenge faced by any player in managing to get any of their artillery or war wagons into the opponents half of the table and within 4MU of the side edge before a pushed-back enemy flank march arrives there is also so massive and so fleetingly unlikely that it would also feel rather unfair to penalise them for it!

Laughing Who knows what could happen with the new fangled Light Artillery & WWgs in V4. Wink
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 2:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I for one would not be surprised if this situation has never arisen in any game ever played!
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 3:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hostage to fortune or an extreme edge case?
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Dickstick
Légat


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 5:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You are having difficulty with this vexillia.
It's not as complicated as you are trying to make it.
Driven back Command arrives then next turn following command arrives.

What effect artillery and warwagons on driven back units is easy. They disorder all units of said Command who approach within 4 ud.
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 13, 2021 5:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
You are having difficulty with this vexillia.

Not really. Just winding up Tim a little.🤗
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 14, 2021 12:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dueling flank marches came up in a game yesterday in fact.

My conclusion from reading the rules is that the force driven back always arrives before the victorious one. Seems pretty clear to me from page 80 which says the repulsed flank march arrive and that the victorious flank march arrives in their next movement phase. Or to quote Tim

"The driven back flank march enters during the next movement phase of the owning player. (first bullet). The driving-back flank march then enters during the "next movement phase" after that. That will inevitably be in its owners next turn. "

My only remaining question is what happens if the force driven back is hesitant? Page 80 says that it becomes reliable "at the moment the enemy flank march enters" but the larger force will arrive after the driven back one.

I interpreted "enters" to mean at the point where the larger enemy flank march either successfully rolls to enter or is prompted to do so by the driving a flank march back section on page 80, and not at the later point where it is placed on the table.

I might be wrong in this but if I am how do you move a force onto the table in a hesitant state? How could it move on if it cannot move?

If the larger force is hesitant there is no issue as the driven back force will arrive first. But the opposite case is unclear to me.
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I never roll a six
Gladiateur


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 14, 2021 6:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You can't roll for entry of a flank march of a hesitant corps until it becomes reliable. I would have thought that once a larger flanking corps forces its smaller opponent's flank corps to be pushed back onto the table the smaller corps ceases to be hesitant, and it is assumed that they have been made reliable by the advance of the larger flanking corps which is forcing them back.
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SteveR
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 14, 2021 3:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
"You can't roll for entry of a flank march of a hesitant corps until it becomes reliable"

Correct. However once the opponent successfully rolls to enter you then begin the "driving back" procedure and that raises the question indicated and one way or another the hesitant command will be coming on the table.

If the hesitant command is the larger one it will arrive and be reliable upon entry as the opposing flank march is on the table. What to do if it is smaller is the question.

" I would have thought that once a larger flanking corps forces its smaller opponent's flank corps to be pushed back onto the table the smaller corps ceases to be hesitant, and it is assumed that they have been made reliable by the advance of the larger flanking corps which is forcing them back."

This is my conclusion as well, and think the game will play well if this is the case, however the rules don't exactly say that. They say the smaller corps becomes reliable once the larger force "Enters"

Hence my appeal for a broad reading of the work "enters" to mean "once it becomes certain that the corps will enter" rather than "physically enters on the table"
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 15, 2021 8:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
"You can't roll for entry of a flank march of a hesitant corps until it becomes reliable"

Correct. However once the opponent successfully rolls to enter you then begin the "driving back" procedure and that raises the question indicated and one way or another the hesitant command will be coming on the table.

If the hesitant command is the larger one it will arrive and be reliable upon entry as the opposing flank march is on the table. What to do if it is smaller is the question.

" I would have thought that once a larger flanking corps forces its smaller opponent's flank corps to be pushed back onto the table the smaller corps ceases to be hesitant, and it is assumed that they have been made reliable by the advance of the larger flanking corps which is forcing them back."

This is my conclusion as well, and think the game will play well if this is the case, however the rules don't exactly say that. They say the smaller corps becomes reliable once the larger force "Enters"

Hence my appeal for a broad reading of the work "enters" to mean "once it becomes certain that the corps will enter" rather than "physically enters on the table"


Looks like one to refer to the DT - a corner case situation so rare, and so easily avoided by players (never send an ally on a flank march!) that it may never ever happen anyway... I'm sure there will be a ruling befcore it comes up in a game, even if its only ever correct edin v5 Smile
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 15, 2021 11:16 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
(never send an ally on a flank march!)

Did that in my first competition and promptly rolled a 1 Embarassed

Followed next turn by two 6s Cool

Sheer brilliance, must try it again sometime.

Dave
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 15, 2021 1:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
(never send an ally on a flank march!)

Did that in my first competition and promptly rolled a 1 Embarassed

Followed next turn by two 6s Cool

Sheer brilliance, must try it again sometime.

Dave


and so easily avoided by even marginally competent players (never send an ally on a flank march!) that it may never ever happen anyway..
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SteveR
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 16, 2021 3:16 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I never claimed to be in any way competent.

I've been experimenting with flank marches in V4. The idea is a small command with an ordinary general who is unreliable or even better unreliable and included to save points. 4 Medium Sword impetuous only run 21 points this way and can have an impact outsized to the cost - both in terms of uncertainty if they are in ambush as well as a possible flank attack.

The major cost is the loss of the Die/2 of one generals CP not being on the table. But the general increase in available general points under V4 help mitigate this - the other two commands have brilliant generals.

My dream would be to have a command of 3 mediocre LH with an included unreliable general. Only 6 points - even if the LH will not cause a cohesion loss from hitting a flank. And arrive on a 5 or a 6. I'm still trying to find a list with that possibility...
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 28, 2021 12:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I believe list #99 - CALEDONIAN, SCOTS-IRISH AND PICTISH might allow you to try this using a Pictish army with between 2-8 LH javelin.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 28, 2021 2:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I played almost 300 games in tournament, and i doesn't count where i was umpire.
I saw once a flankmarch driven back.
I rarely saw wwg and artilery
I never saw a flankmarch entering with no place at more than 4Ud to a ennemy unit.

I would say it's the sort of rule point discovered in WC, instead of reading army lists. When the case will come, if it comes (and i will be surprised) i 'lll "umpiring" it.
Until so, i have a real life to live.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 03, 2021 2:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
While on the subject, could someone explain to me:
(page 80) Units of a repulsed flank march who approach within 4 UD of an enemy become Disordered.

I thought Disordered was equivalent to have 1 or more cohesion point losses - is this equivalent to saying they lose a cohesion point?
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