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Longbows
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 12, 2021 6:34 pm    Sujet du message: Longbows Répondre en citant
I played (and came 2nd) at the Thunder on the Severn tournament last weekend and played against two well run 100YW English armies winning one game and narrowly losing the other using list #7 Assyrians. That seems enough for me to declare myself and expert on v4 longbows.
The advent of Med Sw Longbows (and stakes as I will note) is one of the more consequential changes in v4. Make no mistake these are very powerful troops. Enough so that I detect a wave of complaining about their power incoming. There were three armies at the tournament with longbows and they didn't lose to anything except me or another longbow army...
My list:
Strategist (+4, 21 Units)
2 Elite Armoured L Ch Bow
2 L Ch Bow
2 Elite M Sw Impact
1 1/2 M Sw 1/2 Bow
2 LI Sling
Competent Sub-General
4 Elite M Sw Impact
1 1/2 M Sw 1/2 Bow
2 LI Bow
Competent Sub-General
2 Elite Armoured L Ch Bow
2 L Ch Bow
1 Mediocre LC Bow
Rather than discuss the games in detail I thought I would talk about fighting longbows and their associated support troops...Mostly this is about fighting armies with at least six and more like eight or more longbows with stakes (some notes on organization and future thoughts later on...).
Longbows are a powerful package, but come at a hefty cost of 11AP a base. They are capable against foot with a combination of shooting and melee capability. They are lethal against mounted - as long as they have stakes. They are pretty speedy and because they shoot they exert influence over a lot table - a 7 UD swatch in front of them basically.
So they are covering a lot of bases so pretty cool nearly invincible right?
Well...maybe not but they deserve respect and need to fought carefully and with some planning. One key is that they are only found in numbers in a few armies and those armies have some particular characteristics (we'll ignore the other that get a pair of them, they aren't "longbow armies"). They are all the typical late-Medieval Western Europeans so they tend not to get many light infantry, they tend to get pretty limited light cavalry, though usually at least a pair. The English versions get pretty limited mounted knights (the Continentals though...). Also notable, they mostly get expensive other troops.
So what does this mean? It means you are facing an army that doesn't have a lot of skirmishers, doesn't have muchh in the way wide ranging force threatening to rapidly turn a flank, isn't going to be very big (usually right aroudn 20-22 units) and is going to be stretched to get much in the way of good generals - Strategist + brilliant is unlikely...It is likely though to have a pretty large number of battle line troops 6-8 longbows + 6-8 knights/foot knights/h sw types.
So how do you defeat that?
You remember the following:
- If the longbow doesn't shoot at you it is an Ordinary Medium Swordsmen. I don't recall anyone thinking armies of M Sw are all conquering. "but they do shoot" you plead...
- Make sure they shoot at anything but the troops you are going to win the game with - anything. Ideally this will be light infantry. But really anything will do - except your strike troops. I protected one flank of my Assyrian M Sw with chariots in one game. Yes they got shot up, but those were arrows that didn't hit the Asharittu. If you are in a late Medieval period I would think pretty hard before having an army that had less than 4 light infantry. Four is a really good number as you can block six longbow shooting, that gives you a very solid attacking frontage.
- You didn't think to bring infantry? Actually not a problem...The stakes will let you dismount all of your mounted (and it is a must because of this in v4 to bring dismounts for all your mounted). Review the dismounting options they are better than you might think. All your HC Bow types? They dismount as M Swordsmen Armoured Missile Support. Do this and attack the longbows with them - they should win assuming they arrive mostly intact. Knights dismount as foot knights - the actual French armies of the period did do the right thing - just don't be a total failure in commanding them and you should be all right.
- You didn't think to bring LI? Well dismount your light cavalry then...
I hadn't fully thought through the dismounting implications until literally I had deployed in the second game (the one I lost) agains the English. I could have gone from 8 MI to 16 MI but hadn't quite set up correctly to do it. You may want to keep some mounted to A) keep the English light cavalry honest and B) ZoC annoying English knights.
Then realize the following, the English need to be in a fairly solid line to make their army work. They have little ability to refuse battle and if they wind up without a bunch of longbows in a line shooting they are at real risk of just getting overrun. The longbows are not nearly as much of a threat showing up on the flanks as other troops. They can't shoot at people already in melee so they have to physically get into melee themselves.
So get in there, go fast and hit them. Once you committ to doing it you are committing to the game winning or losing action. Do everythign you need to to insure you win. The longbow guy will start the fight at an advantage in attrition. This is unavoidable. He will have killed some or all of your LI, he will have attrited your flank troops and other skirmishers. You make up for this by killing the longbows.
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Tucker
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 24 Juil 2018
Messages: 18
MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 13, 2021 1:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I definitely agree that you shouldn't dismount everything. Two or three stands of cavalry or mounted knights are good for keeping the enemy honest.

I'll be interested to see how pavise-equipped crossbowmen fair, now that that is an option for most medieval armies. If I understand the math right, the longbowmen and crossbowmen shoot at each other with the same factors.

What do you think about using artillery to force the longbows to move up? This could be even more viable in 4th as the longbowmen are less likely to be elite and therefore more vulnerable to the artillery.
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 14, 2021 11:51 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Pavise longbows can shoot with them, but not sure that is a whole solution, it just gets you an even exchange.

Artillery, sure you can plink them but probably not enough damage to be really concerning for hte longbows. You really need to get stuck in on them.
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Soranon
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2012
Messages: 2640
Localisation: Toulouse
MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 14, 2021 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Best opponents for a big line of MI longbow :
- An elephant corps with 2 elephant elite and 3-4 MI impact or impetuous, screened by some LI
- An line of MI impact elite or MI 2HCW screened by LI (who said Almugavare ? Rolling Eyes )
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