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Exceptions to Uncontrolled Charge - with Official Response
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 8:41 am    Sujet du message: Exceptions to Uncontrolled Charge - with Official Response Répondre en citant
Hi All,

I noticed on Dave Allen's recent thread that there was some discussion on impetuous units and the exceptions to uncontrolled charge. As this conversation does not directly relate to Dave's original queries, I thought I would pose my question here:

Page 45 , under Uncontrolled Charges, says that "when any impetuous unit....is within charge range of an enemy....any manoeuvre other than a charge or a movement to give support to a friend in melee costs 3 CP". Under Exceptions to Uncontrolled Charge, however, a variety of circumstances are described in which units are not required to make uncontrolled charges.

If a unit of undisrupted heavy spear is 3BW in front of a unit of impetuous cavalry, does the heavy cavalry need to pay 1CP or 3CP to move away from the spear (assuming that there are no other units within charge range and no difficult manoeuvres are involved)? I had always assumed that 1CP was required, as the cavalry is not subject to impetuous charge, but Mike Bennet's recent posting suggests that this is not the case.

Thanks,
Jesse


Dernière édition par Longtooth le Ven Juil 30, 2021 9:45 am; édité 1 fois
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Cv are not subject to uncontroled charge against heavy infantry who is not in disorder. So, if it don't made difficult manoeuvre, it only cost 1 point, assuming it moves 4 UD.
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Longtooth
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks, Lionelrus.....I thought I was going crazy for a moment.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 9:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Lionel, I'm sure what you said is the intent. But its not what the rules say. The rules state that if an impetuous unit is in charge reach of an enemy, not if they're subject to uncontrolled charge. So impetuous infantry in charge reach of mounted have to spend 3CP on any move other than a move to contact, but are not required to charge it.

I agree this is stupid and needs changing. But its currently what the rules say.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 11:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No Alan, this has not changed from V3.

The text states that Impetuous troops in charge Range are subject to an Uncontrolled Charge (and must pay 3CP to do anything other than charging or moving to contact) UNLESS they are exempted (P46). In the case of Impetuous Infantry, they do not need to make an Uncontrolled Charge against the front of mounted troops (BP8). So they need not spend CP to remain static, and spend 1CP to charge and 2CP to make a difficult move.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 11:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
No Alan, this has not changed from V3.

The text states that Impetuous troops in charge Range are subject to an Uncontrolled Charge (and must pay 3CP to do anything other than charging or moving to contact) UNLESS they are exempted (P46). In the case of Impetuous Infantry, they do not need to make an Uncontrolled Charge against the front of mounted troops (BP8). So they need not spend CP to remain static, and spend 1CP to charge and 2CP to make a difficult move.


Sorry to be dense Gavin, but we agree page 46 exempts units from the uncontrolled charge. However from our reading page 45 still seems to impose a 3pip move, and we could not find any similar exemption from this on page 45, page 46 or elsewhere.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 11:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Uncontrolled charges P45 states
Some troops are very eager to fight and tend to attack even if they do not receive orders to do so. All Impetuous troops have the potential to make uncontrolled charges against the enemy in certain circumstances (see exceptions p 46).

The rest of the text of this section refers to the process of making uncontrolled charges, etc, including the fourth bullet which explains when the uncontrolled charge takes place. The exceptions (p46) state
Citation:
Exceptions to uncontrolled charge
An Impetuous unit is not required** to make an uncontrolled charge in the following cases: . . . . . .
** In V3 “An enemy does not provoke an uncontrolled chargeâ€
This removes the requirement to make make an uncontrolled charge, and consequently also removes the requirement to pay 3CP etc.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 29, 2021 5:19 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
, and consequently also removes the requirement to pay 3CP etc.


Morning Gavin
with you up to this last section.  Whilst I imagine it should be true, I cannot see how it is supported by your quote or anything else in the rules.


 Pg45 “when an impetuous unit is within charge range of an enemy…..

Any manoeuvre other than a charge or a movement to give support to a friend in melee costs 3 CP.â€


 Even if it exempted from an impetuous charge the enemy it is still within range, see definition on page 42.


 Ps thanks for your patience responding. We need to clarify this, and any other points, using the rules as they are written or an errata if needed.  It could really put off others who do not participate as much if we add in things that were intended but not supported by the written words. I am not trying to be an arse who exploits their experience and any obscure reading of the rules that they have been shown. Rather the reverse, I am trying to make sure they get widely known or better still corrected, to make it impossible for the unscrupulous (and pleased to say I have not played any of them for many many years) to pull them on the unsuspecting,
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 29, 2021 8:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am a bit dense as I do not understand this logic. 

What I think is being suggested is that BP3 always applies, irrespective of anything else. But this is taking that text out of the context of the entire section entitled Uncontrolled Charges, which also contains the Exceptions on the following page.  

The way this text (and that of V3) is presented, an Impetuous unit that is within charge range of an enemy becomes subject to an uncontrolled charge, the definition, penalties, process and exceptions of which are covered in the following text over pp45-46. 

If an exception to an uncontrolled charge applies, then none of the following text applies including the 3CP penalty. 


This has always been the case. So what am I missing ??
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juil 29, 2021 9:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So to summarise, the two different rules readings seem to be:

1. You must take it into context of the wider headings and pages, along with the exemption to uncontrolled charges on page 46 and interpret the sentence on 3 CP moves as not applying as there is no uncontrolled charge required
OR
2. If you can apply an exemption to charging impetuously it is then free to hold, but the specific page 45 sentence is still applicable, can be directly read as presented and it is still 3CPs for a move that is not to contact.

Must admit, from a game play point of view I prefer the result of option 1, no 3CP move. However from a rules presentation and player point of view I think that the reading and interpretation to get there is too convoluted for all but the most focused and dedicated rules reader. Not easy to read and pick up the logic unless you have taken part in this thread.

I would be so much clearer, if that was the intention, for pg 45 said the 3CP only applied when the unit must otherwise make an uncontrolled charge. For me this topic is now done, until we get a definitive view form the DT or Herve
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 30, 2021 4:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
To rephrase the two points of view people are arguing over, is the following correct:

a)
Any thing with "range" is 3 CP move. The exceptions only halt the actual uncontrolled movement. Controlled movement under this is still 3 CP.

or

B)
The exceptions void the whole uncontrolled charge section and CP cost. Therefore anything implying 3 CP cost is void, because they are in exception.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 30, 2021 6:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
To rephrase the two points of view people are arguing over, is the following correct:

a)
Any thing with "range" is 3 CP move. The exceptions only halt the actual uncontrolled movement. Controlled movement under this is still 3 CP.

or

B)
The exceptions void the whole uncontrolled charge section and CP cost. Therefore anything implying 3 CP cost is void, because they are in exception.


It seems like the literal wording is clearly (a), but the intention is just about as clearly (b).


As an aside, this is a lot of fuss over something ("impetuous troops") that is pretty historically dubious in most cases anyway.
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plefebvre
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 30, 2021 7:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Here is the official answer confirmed by the author.

1- There is no change of concept between V3 and V4.
2- When impetuous units are exempted of uncontrolled charge (due to exceptions listed page 46 ) then they move along general rule (so 0CP to stay still, 1CP to charge or move full distance and 2CP for a difficult manoeuvre )


Technical board / rule committee
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 30, 2021 7:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Phew!
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 30, 2021 8:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks guys, great, clear,

Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Juil 30, 2021 8:35 am; édité 3 fois
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