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Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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 Posté le: Mar Juil 27, 2021 9:06 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | | [*]Impetuous units must charge, conform or pay 3CP to move elsewhere (player’s choice) |
Doesn’t it cost impetuous units 2CP to move elsewhere and 3 CP to do nothing (stand still)? |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4701
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 27, 2021 10:02 am Sujet du message: |
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P45, 1st bullet:
any manoeuvre other than a charge or a movement to give support to a friend in melee costs 3 point.
So, if a impetuous unit charge any opponent, (without conversion), it only cost 1 point. The same to providing support.
If the impetuous makes conversion, cost 2 point as difficult manoeuvre.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 27, 2021 10:01 pm Sujet du message: |
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| lionelrus a écrit: | P45, 1st bullet:
any manoeuvre other than a charge or a movement to give support to a friend in melee costs 3 point.
So, if a impetuous unit charge any opponent, (without conversion), it only cost 1 point. The same to providing support.
If the impetuous makes conversion, cost 2 point as difficult manoeuvre. |
And even when you are not obliged to charge impetuously due to exception rules, e.g. elephants or foot v mounted etc. Â it is still 3 points to manoeuvre unless you charge, although in these exception cases holding is free. |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 6:33 am Sujet du message: |
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So where an impetuous unit has the chance to conform per p.51 (conforming units already in contact), has less than 3CP available, and no new enemy it can charge, it must conform?
Including where it would end up with enemy on it’s flank?
Or does it remain unconformed? |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 6:57 am Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | So where an impetuous unit has the chance to conform per p.51 (conforming units already in contact), has less than 3CP available, and no new enemy it can charge, it must conform?
Including where it would end up with enemy on it’s flank?
Or does it remain unconformed? |
I would need to read the rules, and not got them with me,. But from memory, could you let them go impetuous, then as an impetuous charge is not obliged to get itself hard flank would they simply stay in place? |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4701
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:07 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | lionelrus a écrit: | P45, 1st bullet:
any manoeuvre other than a charge or a movement to give support to a friend in melee costs 3 point.
So, if a impetuous unit charge any opponent, (without conversion), it only cost 1 point. The same to providing support.
If the impetuous makes conversion, cost 2 point as difficult manoeuvre. |
And even when you are not obliged to charge impetuously due to exception rules, e.g. elephants or foot v mounted etc. Â it is still 3 points to manoeuvre unless you charge, although in these exception cases holding is free. |
No Mike, if they are not obliged to uncontroled charge, impetuous move normaly, however with al impetuous restrictions.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4701
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:12 am Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | So where an impetuous unit has the chance to conform per p.51 (conforming units already in contact), has less than 3CP available, and no new enemy it can charge, it must conform?
Including where it would end up with enemy on it’s flank?
Or does it remain unconformed? |
Well, he could
Conforming
Charging another enney, but there no target in range , so he can't
Makes something else for 3cp, but he hadn't , so he cant
Stay unconforming is forbidden, so......
He conforms
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:20 am Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | So where an impetuous unit has the chance to conform per p.51 (conforming units already in contact), has less than 3CP available, and no new enemy it can charge, it must conform?
Including where it would end up with enemy on it’s flank?
Or does it remain unconformed? |
Every unit, impetuous or not, which is in a position to conform and which lacks pips to do anything different must conform.
That is the basic rule about conforming.
There are no exceptions for times that may work out to be less than favourable to you.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:22 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | Zoltan a écrit: | So where an impetuous unit has the chance to conform per p.51 (conforming units already in contact), has less than 3CP available, and no new enemy it can charge, it must conform?
Including where it would end up with enemy on it’s flank?
Or does it remain unconformed? |
I would need to read the rules, and not got them with me,. But from memory, could you let them go impetuous, then as an impetuous charge is not obliged to get itself hard flank would they simply stay in place? |
Units who start a turn in non-combat contact with someone can't charge them. They can only (and must, somehow) conform.
Impetuous charge restrictions (against the unit they start in contact with) would not apply in this situation.
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Dernière édition par madaxeman le Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:23 am; édité 1 fois |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 9:28 pm Sujet du message: |
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| lionelrus a écrit: |
No Mike, if they are not obliged to uncontroled charge, impetuous move normaly, however with al impetuous restrictions. |
Sorry Lionel, I can very well imagine that this may be the intent, but in the English version at least it is not what is written. To borrow Alan’s comment “The rules state that if an impetuous unit is in charge reach of an enemy, not if they're subject to uncontrolled charge. So impetuous infantry in charge reach of mounted have to spend 3CP on any move other than a move to contact, but are not required to charge itâ€. Therefore the main benefit they get is that they can stand still for free, unless they are in a “touching†and enemy and must conform.
I was very surprised when I was first shown this a couple of weeks ago. I also agree this is probably not be the intention, and seems strange, but it is currently what the rules say
Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:07 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 9:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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NO Mike, the unit may not remain static. The rule on conformation after a melee P51 requires the unit to move, charge (uncontrolled or not) or conform.Â
The fact that the situation may absolve impetuous troops from an uncontrolled charge does not remove this requirement.
So the unit must conform if the player does not pay CP to move away or charge |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 10:15 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | | NO Mike, the unit may not remain static. The rule on conformation after a melee P51 requires the unit to move, charge (uncontrolled or not) or conform. |
I agree, and acknowledge my error, see my last comment; “Therefore the main benefit they get is that they can stand still for free, unless they are in a “touching†and enemy and must conformâ€
The rest of this response was to Lionel on the English rules wording on the 3pip move restriction to impetuous units within charge RANGE, which applies even if they are not required to make a compulsorily impetuous charge due to the exceptions, such as elephants etc. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 11:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | The rest of this response was to Lionel on the English rules wording on the 3pip move restriction to impetuous units within charge RANGE, which applies even if they are not required to make a compulsorily impetuous charge due to the exceptions, such as elephants etc. |
This is incorrect Mike and has not changed from V3. If impetuous troops are exempted from making an uncontrolled charge, they do not have to pay 3CP to do something other than contact the enemy.
Interestingly, in the context of conforming after a melee, these exceptions may remove the option of making an uncontrolled charge where for example it would result in the unit ending in flank contact etc. which would mean that making a charge away from conformation would cost impetuous troops 1CP |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 28, 2021 11:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | if impetuous troops are exempted from making an uncontrolled charge, they do not have to pay 3CP to do something other than contact the enemy.
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Hi Gavin, Please see my response to the specific question on this topic, to avoid duplication.
Ps thanks for your patience responding. We need to clarify this, and any other points, using the rules as they are written or an errata if needed. Â It could really put off others who do not participate as much if we add in things that were intended but not supported by the written words |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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