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Buyids of Baghdad (List 199)
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KevinD
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 16, 2021 1:03 am    Sujet du message: Buyids of Baghdad (List 199) Répondre en citant
Why are the Dailami foot of the Buyids of Baghdad not permitted to be upgraded to Elite? All other Dailami foot (both in this list and in all others that I’ve seen) have the option to be Elite. If anything these were perhaps the most successful Dailami, having seized control of the Caliphate. I don’t recall any sources saying they alone of all the Dailami were particularly decadent.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 16, 2021 3:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I can't speak to the actual reason. But in another rule set a list person asserted that the Dailmai in mass should not be consistently the highest quality. There were the Dailmai in the highlands. Then there were the batches that were "mercenaries" if you will around and that at some point a portion of the Dailami were not the same quality. So extrapolating from that, then adding the Buyids were much more the "new" Islamic rulers Baghdad and Ghilman became an even more pronounced part of the governing army.
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KevinD
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 16, 2021 7:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Initially I thought that might be the rationale, but the list allows the Dailami armies from their homeland, which are permitted to have far more Dailami infantry (6-24 as compared to the 4-12 for the Buyids of Baghdad), to all be Elite. The Buyids from elsewhere as well as all other Dailami dynasties are allowed to all be Elite. Just those from Baghdad are not.

FWIW, there are some weird date issues with this list too. The list seems to imply that the Buyids only ruled Baghdad from 946-978 when in fact they sized it in 945 and held on to it until 1055. Can you be a Buyid Baghdad ruler from these other dates but then not get the extra Ghulams and allies but be allowed Elite Dailami during these other dates?

This date issue occurs in other lists too, like the Tamils where the list implies the Chola only reigned from 979-1279 when the Chola dynasty is recorded from as early as 200 BC or so and the dominant power in S India and Sri Lanka around 900 AD (between 850-910) Tu much of Chola history is admittedly murky with the dynasty conquering huge swaths of S India and Sri Lanka then being reduced to obscurity in defeat before rising up again. In any case the lists are unclear when the use different terms for the Command value versus troop composition - are Cholas from earlier periods allowed the +3 command but not the Impact Swirds while the later periods get both? Or does the author intend to limit the +3 command value only to Cholas from the later date?
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire


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MessagePosté le: Sam Sep 18, 2021 10:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
FWIW, there are some weird date issues with this list too. The list seems to imply that the Buyids only ruled Baghdad from 946-978 when in fact they sized it in 945 and held on to it until 1055. Can you be a Buyid Baghdad ruler from these other dates but then not get the extra Ghulams and allies but be allowed Elite Dailami during these other dates?


Oh good, I wasn't the only one who thought that 32 years for the Buyids of Baghdad seemed a bit low.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 22, 2021 8:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Buya was acknowledged by the Caliph earlier in 945, but it was not until late December 945 that Baghdad was enterred, so starting this option in 946 does not seem so wrong.

The other anomaly is that the strategist starts in 945, a year before the other Baghdad options. .Herve has confirmed that this is an error.
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KevinD
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 22, 2021 6:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Buya was acknowledged by the Caliph earlier in 945, but it was not until late December 945 that Baghdad was enterred, so starting this option in 946 does not seem so wrong.

The other anomaly is that the strategist starts in 945, a year before the other Baghdad options. .Herve has confirmed that this is an error.


My real issue was not whether it should start in December of 945 or January of 946 (or should that be March 25th, 946 (minus a few days for the Julian-Gregorian conversion) as that is when the new year started prior to 1752 (in the English speaking world - other countries had other days, often either Narch 25th or December 25th)).

Rather my question was why it ended so soon when the Buyids held on it Baghdad for the better part of a century after 978. Or is it that you can have Buyids in Baghdad post 978 but you just lose access to the enhanced number of Ghulams, the religious fanatics and the reduced number of required Dailami?

However, even that was a subsidiary point to my main question of ‘why Dailami foot in this list, and only this list, don’t have at least the option to be Elite?’By some measures at least they were the most successful Dailami polity. Is it because of interethnic and inter sectarian tensions in Baghdad? If so that seems a bit harsh when compared to every other army coming from a politically fragile polity. Or is it just a balance thing to avoid having too many Elite troops when paired with their expanded number of Ghulams?
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 23, 2021 11:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The real answer is probably pretty simple. The list was brought forward from the previous edition. No one who actually knows Buyid history has looked at it in a while.

Post v4 there have been a few complaints about "why isn't X in a list fixed/the way I think it should be?" People ask, "did you bring it up?" "No I just thought it obvious."

I am NOT saying you did this here, but as a more general statement for the lists. There is no body of historians writing these. They come from accumulated wisdom (aka DBM, WRG xth, whateveer) and people writing up suggestions for change. I know the Byzantines got heavily revised based on one player writing up a big set of suggestions with references.

The "new" English longbows are based on many forum conversations about longbows, etc.

I sent in a big list of suggested new Strategists partly because I think the existing ones reflected a very Western bias, so at least part of the reason there are more Middle Eastern and Asian strategists is that.

Remember, all of this is basically due to volunteer work of a bunch of people. So yeah, there are probably some things that are wrong especially with the lists that no one pays attention to. The Dailami in ADLG are a pretty weak list, especially in v3, so no one was looking at them much.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 23, 2021 6:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
The real answer is probably pretty simple. The list was brought forward from the previous edition. No one who actually knows Buyid history has looked at it in a while.

Post v4 there have been a few complaints about "why isn't X in a list fixed/the way I think it should be?" People ask, "did you bring it up?" "No I just thought it obvious."

I am NOT saying you did this here, but as a more general statement for the lists. There is no body of historians writing these. They come from accumulated wisdom (aka DBM, WRG xth, whateveer) and people writing up suggestions for change. I know the Byzantines got heavily revised based on one player writing up a big set of suggestions with references.

The "new" English longbows are based on many forum conversations about longbows, etc.

I sent in a big list of suggested new Strategists partly because I think the existing ones reflected a very Western bias, so at least part of the reason there are more Middle Eastern and Asian strategists is that.

Remember, all of this is basically due to volunteer work of a bunch of people. So yeah, there are probably some things that are wrong especially with the lists that no one pays attention to. The Dailami in ADLG are a pretty weak list, especially in v3, so no one was looking at them much.


Good answer! Thanks.

Although it is kind of disappointing to discover there I are not hundreds of Oxford dons reviewing each line of each list for accuracy and completeness. Sad
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