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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mer Déc 15, 2021 6:17 pm Sujet du message: Revealing an ambush |
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A few questions about revealing ambushes during the enemy movement phase.
1. Suppose the enemy comes up to 1 UD from my ambush marker, which is a real ambush, not a fake one. On p 77 the enemy stops, and if it’s a fake ambush the enemy can continue moving. However as it’s a real ambush, the ambushes are placed on the table. Can the enemy continue moving after this (obeying any ZOC restrictions from the discovered ambushes, if any)? I know the enemy can’t charge the ambushes with the moving group, but can the moving group keep moving?
2. Also, if the enemy has another group nearby, can these now charge the revealed ambushes?
3. Finally, the rules say you can reveal an ambush “as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within 4 UD of the markerâ€. So you can reveal when the enemy is exactly 4 UD or the first time they are within 4 UD. But can you reveal it later, say when the enemy is at 2 UD? Or is it a one time thing, reveal it when they are first at or within 4 UD or you can’t voluntarily reveal during the enemy’s movement?
(Assume none of these are part of unreliable commands.) |
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Longtooth
Signifer
Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014 Messages: 350
Localisation: Oxford
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Posté le: Mer Déc 15, 2021 10:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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1. Yes, the enemy may continue moving. Although if the ambush is revealed by moving within one base width of the ambush marker, it is unlikely that you will be able to move very far.
2. Although the enemy unit / group that revealed the ambush is unable to charge the units that were in ambush, there is nothing stopping a nearby unit / group from doing so.
3. The rules say that ambushes can be revealed 'as soon as' a unit moves within 4UD of the ambush marker. In my mind, this means that the ambush may only be revealed when the enemy unit is 3.9999999 UD from the ambush marker. When moving near an ambush marker, I will often stop at 4UD and ask my opponent if they would like to reveal an ambush before moving any closer. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Mer Déc 15, 2021 11:54 pm Sujet du message: |
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Sorry Longtooth only troops finding dummy ambushes can continue to move. Others STOP as it says in the rules.
This wasn't written about in the v3 thread Ramses. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 12:02 am Sujet du message: |
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Well I just spent some time I should not have reading 3 pages of discussion. And apart from the usual suspects 'streping their 'tudes, got nothing out of it. Because it was completely inconclusive. No word or rumor of a word from the author or DT (Dylan Thomas?). Just the same argument being rehashed here.
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Ok, in fairness, it appears the v3 rule was as soon as an enemy unit comes within 4 UD whereas the v4 rule is as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within 4 UD, which would indicate the ambush does not have to be voluntarily revealed immediately at <4 UD. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 11:43 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | Sorry Longtooth only troops finding dummy ambushes can continue to move. Others STOP as it says in the rules.
This wasn't written about in the v3 thread Ramses. | Not quite true DS LoL
The words of the relevant 4th paragraph are identical in both versions. In essence, the phasing player moves units near the ambush, which the opponent must reveal when they are 1UD away, though he may choose to reveal at an earlier point (up to 4UD away).Â
The moving units may then complete their movement but without charging those units in the revealed ambush. (4th para last sentence).Â
The word “stop†would be better interpreted as “interruptâ€; Citation: | when a unit . . . it must interrupt it’s movement. |
The latitude in the timing of when to reveal an ambush resolves issues over the positioning of the ambushing units. Eg where units would be placed in the path of the advancing enemy. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 11:44 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | Sorry Longtooth only troops finding dummy ambushes can continue to move. Others STOP as it says in the rules.
This wasn't written about in the v3 thread Ramses. | Not quite true DS LoL
The words of the relevant 4th paragraph are identical in both versions. In essence, the phasing player moves units near the ambush, which the opponent must reveal when they are 1UD away, though he may choose to reveal at an earlier point (up to 4UD away).Â
The moving units may then complete their movement but without charging those units in the revealed ambush. (4th para last sentence).Â
The word “stop†would be better interpreted as “interruptâ€; Citation: | when a unit . . . it must interrupt it’s movement. |
The latitude in the timing of when to reveal an ambush resolves issues over the positioning of the ambushing units. Eg where units would be placed in the path of the advancing enemy. |
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Longtooth
Signifer
Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014 Messages: 350
Localisation: Oxford
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 12:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Agreed
Agreed |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 5:43 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | Dickstick a écrit: | Sorry Longtooth only troops finding dummy ambushes can continue to move. Others STOP as it says in the rules.
This wasn't written about in the v3 thread Ramses. | Not quite true DS LoL
The words of the relevant 4th paragraph are identical in both versions. In essence, the phasing player moves units near the ambush, which the opponent must reveal when they are 1UD away, though he may choose to reveal at an earlier point (up to 4UD away).Â
The moving units may then complete their movement but without charging those units in the revealed ambush. (4th para last sentence).Â
The word “stop†would be better interpreted as “interruptâ€; Citation: | when a unit . . . it must interrupt it’s movement. |
The latitude in the timing of when to reveal an ambush resolves issues over the positioning of the ambushing units. Eg where units would be placed in the path of the advancing enemy. |
I was referring to the answer to question one.
You contradict as if I was answering question three.
Stop is the answer to Q1, continue is the answer to dummy ambush in Q1 and all in Q3 _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 5:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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Longtooth a écrit: |
3. The rules say that ambushes can be revealed 'as soon as' a unit moves within 4UD of the ambush marker. In my mind, this means that the ambush may only be revealed when the enemy unit is 3.9999999 UD from the ambush marker. When moving near an ambush marker, I will often stop at 4UD and ask my opponent if they would like to reveal an ambush before moving any closer. |
Good form for clarity. As a technical note the part you quote was changed in V4 from v3.
V3 "moves to" (paraphrased)
v4, p 77 "can reveal...as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within". emphasis mine. Is was specifically added in v4 to clarify the potential of v3 being you get one chance at 4 ud and not a new one. In v4 the "is" means that at any time a unit "is" within 4 UD. Therefore it is ongoing as long a unit is in the triggering 4 UD. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 6:04 pm Sujet du message: |
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If the enemy must stop at 1 UD for a mandatory reveal, must they also stop at 1 UD when they continue moving after a voluntary reveal? In other words, can the moving enemy put the ambushers into its ZoC? |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 6:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hazelbark a écrit: | Longtooth a écrit: |
3. The rules say that ambushes can be revealed 'as soon as' a unit moves within 4UD of the ambush marker. In my mind, this means that the ambush may only be revealed when the enemy unit is 3.9999999 UD from the ambush marker. When moving near an ambush marker, I will often stop at 4UD and ask my opponent if they would like to reveal an ambush before moving any closer. |
Good form for clarity. As a technical note the part you quote was changed in V4 from v3.
V3 "moves to" (paraphrased)
v4, p 77 "can reveal...as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within". emphasis mine. Is was specifically added in v4 to clarify the potential of v3 being you get one chance at 4 ud and not a new one. In v4 the "is" means that at any time a unit "is" within 4 UD. Therefore it is ongoing as long a unit is in the triggering 4 UD. | Agreed Hazelbark, and apologies both for getting it wrong earlier and resurrecting a spectre from V3.
The point where the ambush is actually revealed is anywhere between 4UD down to 1UD rather than at one of these two points. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Jeu Déc 16, 2021 6:43 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | Agreed Hazelbark, and apologies both for getting it wrong earlier and resurrecting a spectre from V3. |
NO apology needed. We all get tangled up. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Ven Déc 17, 2021 5:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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The Scots at Inverness earlier in the year objected to me trying to continue the move.
Snow whiskey held their view that stop means stop and that was it for the movement. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Sam Déc 18, 2021 12:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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I have checked with the oracle, who has confirmed that the ambush can be revealed at any point where enemy units are moving within 4UD to 1UD, and that once it is placed, the enemy movement can be completed.Â
The intention is to allow the player to place his units before the movement of the ennemy can prevent it.
Then the ennemy can continue its move but it cannot attack.
The timing is tricky since the ennemy can therefore recoil after the ambush was revealed if it has enough movement. |
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