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Art De La Guerre
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Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 501
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 4:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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KevinD a écrit: | Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
Correction to my post: If hit by both a heavy and a light in flank or rear then there is a drop, see page 61
Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Avr 07, 2023 6:00 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 5:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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KevinD a écrit: | Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
Indeed
It was just the revelation to me (& others that I play with) that a cohesion drop can be caused by being double-hit in both/either flanks and/or rear, when the unit was not engaged with another 'heavy' enemy unit frontally, that triggered this thread.
Plus the idea that you could potentially be forced to conform into a position that would ultimately cause you to self destruct |
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Neep
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 143
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 5:30 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mark, you missed the part of Dave's reply where he pointed out the Special cases bullet. If you move, including conform, into a multiple attack situation, you do not take the hit. Presumably the unit is not "surprised". |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 7:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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Neep a écrit: | Mark, you missed the part of Dave's reply where he pointed out the Special cases bullet. If you move, including conform, into a multiple attack situation, you do not take the hit. Presumably the unit is not "surprised". |
Ah - ok - so that supports the original question about not having to 'conform into destruction' - Good to Know.
Comes from doing all this communication on a smart phone and not reading back over the comms trail
Thanks |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 9:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mark G Fry a écrit: | Ok Dave - thanks
So in effect - if a unit is charged (in the same move or in multiple moves) and hit on any two different sides by enemy units (other than Light Infantry, artillery or WWg) it will automatically drop a cohesion point.
There is no need specifically for it to be fighting to its front at the same time.
Well ... we have been playing that one wrong then.
Good to know how the Special rule works as well.
Many thanks
Mark |
Mike Bennett a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
Depends on the order of contact, irrespective if it is the same or a different turn
Heavies in the flank then lights, no drop
Lights then heavies in the flank, you drop |
So I decided to miss off the second sentence of the bullet point because I thought it might just muddy the water. Seems I was wrong - the water's muddy anyway.
Citation: | Page 61 Multiple Attacks bp4 second sentence:
At least one of the enemy units contacting its flank or the rear must conform properly and be other than LI, LH, artillery or WWg. |
Leaving aside that artillery can't make contact, and the puzzling implication that only one of the units needs to conform properly, it looks to me like the order in which units make contact doesn't matter for the cohesion drop.
Which is handy because if, say, a Pike and an LI wanted to contact a HSwd in the open it would not be possible for the LI to contact first (see Contact Restrictions p42).
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Neep
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 143
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 10:33 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hmm. Doesn't look like LI can make a multiple attack against El, SCh, Arty, or other lights, if the target is already engaged on the front edge. Well I guess LH can't do it against anyone either. |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mer Avr 05, 2023 10:56 pm Sujet du message: |
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Neep a écrit: | Hmm. Doesn't look like LI can make a multiple attack against El, SCh, Arty, or other lights, if the target is already engaged on the front edge. Well I guess LH can't do it against anyone either. |
I read that as saying that LI can make the multiple attacks, they just wont drop the El, SCh, Arty or other lights a cohesion level - which is the way I've always understood it.
The wording about Artillery is a bit odd (as they cannot initiate contact) however it is technically possible for a unit to conform its flank into contact with the front edge of an enemy artillery unit - so I suppose that wording covers that eventuality.
Many thanks all.
I am suitable enlightened |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Jeu Avr 06, 2023 11:19 am Sujet du message: |
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Not quite, but we're getting there
Citation: | Page 42 Contact Restrictions, Light Infantry, bp4:
Light Infantry can always contact enemy (even heavy troops) already in melee to provide simple or melee support. |
Which means that in the example I gave [an enemy HSwd unit in the open is charged in the flank by Pike and then a LI unit moves to give melee support on the HSwd's other flank] the HSwd drops a cohesion level.
This is because it has been contacted in both flanks in the same phase and one of the units making contact is not light troops.
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Jeu Avr 06, 2023 7:41 pm Sujet du message: |
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Dave, I disagree.
See p 61.
“When a unit ALREADY IN MELEE, or melee support, is attacked by a NEW enemy (OTHER THAN LIGHT TROOPS, artillery or WWg) on its flank or rear edge, it immediately loses one cohesion point.â€
If the new enemy is light troops they do not cause a cohesion drop.
If the pikes are not ALREADY in Melee (including earlier in the same phase) the HSw do not suffer a drop. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Avr 06, 2023 8:15 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mike Bennett a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
Depends on the order of contact, irrespective if it is the same or a different turn
Heavies in the flank then lights, no drop
Lights then heavies in the flank, you drop |
Ca dépend si il y a un ennemi sur le front ou pas.
Si oui, alors quel que soit cet ennemi sur le front qui est alors le combattant principal, le contact d'une autre troupe par le flanc ou l'arrière cause une perte de cohésion, sauf si la troupe en soutien de mêlée est une troupe légère.
Notez que, dans ce cas, l'unité perd ces éventuels javelot, impact, arme à 2 mains etc...
Si il n'y a pas d'ennemi sur le front, le combattant principal est celui qui contacte en premier. Mais si un LH contacte en premier et une autre troupe non légère contacte ensuite, alors il y a perte de cohésion. En effet, la perte de cohésion n'est pas causée par le combattant principal, mais par la troupe en soutien de mêlée. Donc, si la troupe en soutien de mêlée n'est pas une troupe légère, il y a perte de cohésion. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Jeu Avr 06, 2023 8:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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As Google Translate says:
It depends if there is an enemy on the front line or not.
If yes, then regardless of that enemy on the front who is then the main fighter, contact with another troop from the flank or rear causes loss of cohesion, unless the troop in melee support is a troop light.
Note that, in this case, the unit loses any javelin, impact, 2-handed weapon etc...
If there is no enemy on the front, the main fighter is the first to contact. But if an LH contacts first and another non-light troop contacts next, then there is a loss of cohesion. Indeed, the loss of cohesion is not caused by the main fighter, but by the troop in melee support. Therefore, if the troop in melee support is not a light troop, there is a loss of cohesion. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4725
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Ven Avr 07, 2023 6:37 am Sujet du message: |
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Google traduction' english is better than mine is.
And it's good! _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Ven Avr 07, 2023 7:44 am Sujet du message: |
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Hi Lionel,
helpful as always
My problem is that the way the rule is written bullet point 4 seems to be a separate case to bullet point 1. If, as you suggest, it is a subordinate clause then perhaps it should be amended to make this clear:
From:
Citation: | A unit also loses a cohesion point if it is engaged in melee or melee support on multiple sides by multiple enemy in the same phase. At least one of the enemy units contacting its flank or the rear must conform properly and be other than LI, LH, artillery or WWg. |
To:
Citation: | A unit also loses a cohesion point if it is engaged in melee or melee support on multiple sides by multiple enemy in the same phase. At least one of the enemy units in melee support must conform fully and be other than LI, LH, artillery or WWg. |
This also replaces "properly" (which is the wrong word - an incomplete conformation is "proper" under the conformation rules) with "fully" which is what is intended. No?
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Neep
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023 Messages: 143
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Posté le: Ven Avr 07, 2023 5:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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Or to ask the same question differently,
if an unengaged HISw is attacked first on one flank by LH and then on the other flank by Pike, clearly it loses a cohesion point.
If an unengaged HISw is attacked first on one flank by Pike and then on the other flank by LH, does it lose a cohesion point? |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 501
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Ven Avr 07, 2023 5:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mike Bennett a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Being flanked by Lights (including LC) do not cause a cohesion drop. |
Depends on the order of contact, irrespective if it is the same or a different turn
Heavies in the flank then lights, no drop
Lights then heavies in the flank, you drop |
Sorry my error, order does not matter in this case as long as they are in the same phase. Pg61, 4th bullet |
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