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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mar Mar 14, 2023 10:06 pm Sujet du message: Pursuit into flank? |
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We've been having a discussion around what is supposed to happen when a unit destroys its opposing enemy unit and then pursues into the flank of an otherwise unengaged enemy unit.
We may have been playing this wrong, but we thought it worked out as follows.
1. The pursuing unit hits the enemy flank.
2. The two units are now locked in melee
3. In the melee phase of the next turn, the melee is fought with the pursuing unit fighting on the opposing units flank (so it fights at a +1 for fighting to the flank & the unit fighting to the flank fights on a '0')
However, somebody recently stated this is wrong.
What actually happens is that the pursuing unit hits the enemy flank it its turn. In the next turn the phasing player just turns the flanked unit to face the unit in its flank (as a free move) so it now fights the melee with no penalty for having been hit in the flank.
Surely, there must be some disadvantage to the unit which has been pursued into & that it has been hit in the flank by an enemy?
I'd be interested to get a clarification.
Thank you
Mark |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018 Messages: 291
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 1:34 am Sujet du message: |
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There is a big disadvantage if the unit which is contacted is already in melee.
if not, well, assume that they were far enough away to allow them to respond adequately to meet the pursuit.
One can rationalize any mechanism one wants as a justification. But the rules are clear. |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 9:49 am Sujet du message: |
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Absolutely Steve - if the enemy unit which is flanked is already in melee to its front - that makes a big difference.
But what you are saying is that if it is not in melee to its front, it turns (for free?) and then fights at no disadvantage.
If that is the way this works (officially) that is fine (no need for any historical justification - it is a rules mechanism - I get that) - I/we just wanted a clarification - as there appears to be nothing in the rules that states that the unit can turn to face its attacker (immediately) or can do this for free (unless we are misreading something somewhere).
Cheers
Mark |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1476
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 10:03 am Sujet du message: |
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Mark G Fry a écrit: | Absolutely Steve - if the enemy unit which is flanked is already in melee to its front - that makes a big difference.
But what you are saying is that if it is not in melee to its front, it turns (for free?) and then fights at no disadvantage.
If that is the way this works (officially) that is fine (no need for any historical justification - it is a rules mechanism - I get that) - I/we just wanted a clarification - as there appears to be nothing in the rules that states that the unit can turn to face its attacker (immediately) or can do this for free (unless we are misreading something somewhere).
Cheers
Mark |
The rule that allows (nay, requires) any of your otherwise-unengaged units to conform to enemy units who are in contact with their flank, and to do so in your movement phase is in the rules. It's part of the conforming rules. _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017 Messages: 337
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 10:13 am Sujet du message: |
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madaxeman a écrit: | Mark G Fry a écrit: | Absolutely Steve - if the enemy unit which is flanked is already in melee to its front - that makes a big difference.
But what you are saying is that if it is not in melee to its front, it turns (for free?) and then fights at no disadvantage.
If that is the way this works (officially) that is fine (no need for any historical justification - it is a rules mechanism - I get that) - I/we just wanted a clarification - as there appears to be nothing in the rules that states that the unit can turn to face its attacker (immediately) or can do this for free (unless we are misreading something somewhere).
Cheers
Mark |
The rule that allows (nay, requires) any of your otherwise-unengaged units to conform to enemy units who are in contact with their flank, and to do so in your movement phase is in the rules. It's part of the conforming rules. |
Yes - thanks Tim - I understand the compulsion to pursue bit (especially for impetuous troops) but I was wondering if there was any disadvantage to the unit that had been pursued into and hit in the flank? From the way I read Steve's reply the answer appears to be that there are no disadvantages to being hit in the flank by a pursuing unit (unless you are already in melee to your own front). And that the unit that has been pursued into can turn (conform) for free and will fight at no disadvantage in a straight melee against its flank 'attacker' in its own turn.
If that is the case ... then that is fine. I/we just wanted to clarify this.
A slightly 'obscure' follow-on question - is the unit that is pursued into on its flank forced/required to turn to fight its attacker? I can see a situation where the unit being 'flanked' might be better off remaining facing to its front (if it is hit in the flank by an already badly damaged attacker, and it is of much better defensive quality - e.g. heavily armoured & elite etc.). Or is that an 'angels on a pin-head type of question'
Thanks
Mark |
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021 Messages: 171
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 11:24 am Sujet du message: |
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There is another difference to a normal charge.
The pursuit is not considered as a "charge"
(...or recieving a "charge")
There is will be no impact, furious charge, javelin, pike or longspear bonus, polearm and missle support
But...
Medium cavalry still do get the 1 bonus for 1st round against LMi or Medium swordmen.
2HW bonus will be added too |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 12:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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Alexander, I think you are right above except that the Cav vs MI and LMI does not apply unless it is a charge. You do not get this bonus after a pursuit or conforming into contact. There was a discussion about this on this forum last year where this point was clearly explained/clarified. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1476
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Mer Mar 15, 2023 8:29 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mark G Fry a écrit: |
A slightly 'obscure' follow-on question - is the unit that is pursued into on its flank forced/required to turn to fight its attacker? I can see a situation where the unit being 'flanked' might be better off remaining facing to its front (if it is hit in the flank by an already badly damaged attacker, and it is of much better defensive quality - e.g. heavily armoured & elite etc.). Or is that an 'angels on a pin-head type of question'
Thanks
Mark |
The ADLG question is answered I think by the inclusion of the word "must" in the 2nd paragraph on p52, "Conforming units in melee", and also by the word "will" appearing in the 2nd bullet point at the top of the 2nd colum on p69.
As for angels and pinheads, well...
_________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Sam Mar 18, 2023 2:39 am Sujet du message: |
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While the Pursuit is not considered to be a charge (and is limited to 1UD), the new enemy that has been contacted may evade if it is able.
And, unless it is already in melee with another unit, this new enemy is not otherwise disadvantaged by being contacted (though there may be other situational factors).Â
See P69, contacting new enemies |
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