Art De La Guerre

[ALEXANDER]

Last weekend I was at a tournament and this question came up.

AABBCCDD

11...........44
.....2233


Groups A B C and D consist of Medium Swordmen Impetous.
Units 1 and 4 are Medium Swordmen impact.
Unit 2 and 3 are Medium Spearmen mediocre.
Groups A to D charged and contiuned with units B and C into close combat with 2 and 3.
My opponent was last year's Tournament Champion and even the judge also agreed with his attack.
He reasoned that he could prolong his attack because unit 1 and 4 get into close combat during the attack.
Page 41 "sliding along the enemy" point 1. See also the diagram of Unit A2.

However, I was of the opinion that the rule on page 43 Continuing a charge sentence 1 applies. Diagram on page 44 unit C2.

He just spent 1 command point for this attack and ... of course ...rallied some of his disordered units wirh the restly points.
In addition he broke one my spearmen mediocre.

I still think this group attack has been an illegal move.

...but perhaps it would have been legal if he would have spent 3 command points and did 3 separate charges

[ALEXANDER]

My question refers to the diagram on page 41.

Are units A1, A2 already in contact with B6 at the beginning of the movement? ..or is this a charge and the picture is the moment when they contact B6

If they are already in contact ... its the same reason like with Unit A4

...but if its a charge...this rule not compatible with the Diagram on page 44.

Also keep in mind definition of Charge on page 42
The unit must contact the eneny with part of its front edge. (even a single corner)
The charge Shops once contact with the target is made

If unit A1 charges first...
then Unit A2 might perhaps be able to contact B2 because "contacting an enemy already in melee to support a friendly unit is not a charge but a movement" page 42 special cases sentence 3

[ALEXANDER]

If his group charge including a slide has been legal...

What is the difference to the picture 1 of page 51?
Conformation and support.

Is it possible to slide along the enemy ALWAYS
to end up the movement in a position to be able to do a flank attack next turn?

[lionelrus]

Quelqu'un m'a reproché mon mauvais anglais, donc je répond en français.

Tout dépend si A et D sont en zone de contrôle de 1 et 4.
Si oui, A et D font une charge spontannée sur 1 et 4, puis, pour 1 point, Bet C chargent 2 et 3 en glissant le long d'un ennemi.

Si non, pour un point, le groupe de A à D charge pour un point et B et C restent en soutien de A et D respectivement, en contact coin à coin. En effet, il n'y a pas de poursuite de charge dans ce cas.
Pour faire la manoeuvre décrite au premier post sans charge spontannée, celà coûte 3 points: 1 point A charge 1, 1point D charge 4, 1 point Bet C chargent 2 et 3.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.

[ALEXANDER]

I translated your message and I understood everything you wrote.
I am not sure whether unit A and D have been less than 1 Ud away or exactly 1 UD. I think he was exactly at 1 UD so he was out of ZOC

But still the movement of B and C has to be declated as an charge as the want to charge units 2 and 3. And a charge stops when contacting a new enemy (even with a corner)
Units B and C can conform as a support

Its not a simple movement that is supposed to give support to a friend (Page 42 special cases)

Unit 2 and 3 were slightly more than 1 UD behind 1 and 4
So there were not the most threating enemy.

[Za Otlichiye]

I believe it also depends how far back 2 & 3 are from 1 & 4. If less than 1UD, then they become "the most threatening enemy" before B & C reach support position, so B & C are allowed to slide and make contact with the most threatening enemy.

[Ramses II]

The initial diagram is difficult to understand completely, as it appears that the gap between units 1 and 4 is greater than 2UD. This is important because in a charge, each unit that contacts the enemy must stop and conform, even if it only makes contact by a corner.

In the game situation, it seems that the group charges and only units A and D make contact with units 1 and 4 respectively. If this is true and units 2 and 3 do not make any contact, then they may / must advance up to their full movement allowance and may contact the other units (per p43 Continuing a charge). As such this would only cost 1CP. However, if either A or D are completely aligned with their respective opponents, then units B and / or C must also make contact and must therefore stop as well. Indeed, if there is only 2UD gap, then the entire group stops and conforms.

The text and diagrams on p41 about sliding along the side of an enemy lists the three occasions where a units may slide along the flank of an enemy. As Lionelrus states, in your case the player may do this by making separate charges with units A and D forming two separate melees before moving units B and C, which might just possibly cost a total of 1CP if units A and D make spontaneous charges.

In the diagram on p41, A1 either charges separately or starts the turn in contact with B6, thus allowing A2 to slide along the flank of B6. A4 may only slide along the flank of B5 if it starts in contact B5.
Finally, the difference (on p51) is that the unit charges into contact and then conforms by sliding after it's movement has ended, rather than sliding as part of the movement.

[Zoltan]

The fact that your opponent paid 1 CP to declare a group charge indicates that the charging group did NOT start within 1UD of the target (otherwise the chargers would have made a spontaneous charge for free).

Your OP "diagram" is a little imprecise (given the keyboard limitations and extra .... you have added) but the implication is that the front corners of BB and CC make contact with 11 and 44 respectively. This is clearly "contact with the enemy" with BB and CC reaching support positions for AA and DD (respectively).

As you point out, P.43 8-Continuing a charge bullet 1 clearly states "The units of a charging group who have not contacted the enemy and who are not in support of a friendly unit in melee can continue their charge up to their maximum movement allowance." You opponent's charge does not meet the conditions permitting BB and CC to continue their charge. Your opponent (and the umpire) clearly got this wrong - you should name and shame them so we can keep and eye on them in future.



The left-hand diagram at the bottom of P.41 illustrates a situations where A1 and A2 are ALREADY in melee (see P.41 Sliding along the enemy bullet 2). The diagram simply confirms that A2 is permitted to break existing contact with B6 in order to charge B2 by sliding along the side of B6. This specific case has no relevance to your OP example which involves a new charge situation.

[ALEXANDER]

The gap between 11 and 44 was exactly 2 UD.

Conclusion
the definition of a charge and the picture and the text on page 44 is not the final answer.

Units, that CHARGE, do NOT ALWAYS have to stop (and conform as simple support) when contacting a new enemy at the corner.

if you are able to make a spontaneous charge with unit C1
or if you have enough commands points to order attacks with each unit on its own.

YOU CAN ALWAYS SLIDE ALONG THE ENEMY
(if the enemy is already in frontal melee)

Even unit A3 on the picture picture page 41 is able to charge B3 if units A2 and A4 charge B2 and B4 FIRST

You do not have to avoid contact with the front corner of an enemy to end up as a simple support behind the enemy front line and ready to do a flank attack in your next turn
(as on the picture on Page 51)
Unit C (on picture 51) could simply shift to the left and slide along the enemy .....and end up in the same situation

[Hazelbark]

OK a few things.

For 1 CP no they did not do that. People are trying to tell you how they "may".

On p41 left diagram
The slide along B6 is only possible for A2, because at the moment A2 starts moving b6 is fighting. If A1 and A2 were 1/2 UD back they would both stop where you see them. This is what is described as happening in A3.

What people are trying to ascertain is if the mediocre units were enough forward to be how the p41 diagram describes "if B3 was a little forward".

So people are trying to get the precise distance because it matters.


So in non-rule speak: You must stop when you hit a legal support position, unless you are in the ZOC of the enemy you would continue going forward to contact. This is the 3rd bullet.

The bit in second bullet "already in contact" means in contact when your moving unit has not started moving. So it doesn't apply at the instant of contact. It sounds like the ruling was at the instant of simultaneous contact, which would be wrong. But if bullet three was in effect that would then apply even during the instant of simultaneous contact.

[Hazelbark]

[lionelrus]

[Zoltan]

Alexander:

snip Units, that CHARGE, do NOT ALWAYS have to stop (and conform as simple support) when contacting a new enemy at the corner. snip

The ONLY exception to stopping on first contact is when the charger has contacted one enemy's corner AND is now also within the ZOC of another enemy. The second enemy's ZOC tractor beam draws the charger into contact. This is made clear in the P.41 Sliding Along The Enemy diagram text. "A3 cannot slide along B2 and B4 to charge B3 because when it contacts B2 and B4 by its corner, it is not yet within the ZOC of B3. If B3 was a little forward (i.e. projecting a ZOC on A2), it would be the most threatening enemy and A3 could charge him by sliding along B2-B4""

It is not clear from your OP if 2233 were less than 1UD back from 11 and 44. If less than 1UD, 2233's tractor beams would have drawn BB and CC into contact and past their initial corner contact with 11 and 44 (presumably this is why your opponent, and the umpire, played it this way?).


snip You do not have to avoid contact with the front corner of an enemy to end up as a simple support behind the enemy front line and ready to do a flank attack in your next turn
(as on the picture on Page 51)
Unit C (on picture 51) could simply shift to the left and slide along the enemy .....and end up in the same situation snip

No, you've got this wrong. The P.51 Confirmation and Support diagrams are illustrating:

Top diagram - how to conform when the charger's first point of contact is with its front corner against the target's side edge, AND the charger has NOT started its charge from behind a line extending the target's front edge (i.e. it is NOT a flank charge).

Bottom diagram - how to conform when the charger's first point of contact is with its front edge against the target's side edge, AND the charger HAS started its charge from behind a line extending the target's front edge (i.e. it IS a flank charge).

You can't extrapolate these specific examples to a case where the first point of contact is corner to corner (per your OP).

[Za Otlichiye]

There is a second exception you have overlooked. Page 41 sliding along the enemy, bullet 1 - If the enemy is already in melee, you may slide along it to charge, pursue, or give support. You can give support to the friendly unit in the melee and may do so from any flank-to-flank position. So, Alexander's point that you can get into a forward support position, setting up a 1/4 turn to flank attack next turn is correct. For example, in the illustration, A2 could slide forward but not all the way to contact with B2, giving support to A1. So long as A2 stays out of B2's ZoC, it could turn to B6's flank next turn.

[Zoltan]