Art De La Guerre

[SteveR]

So I’ve started playing with and against war wagons with blades for the first time.

War Wagons are unique in that they are larger than a one UD by one UD base

Consider the following case of a war wagon with  blades

War wagon front

W
W..L


War wagon rear 

The war wagon is facing up, and there is an enemy light cavalry which has zoced the war wagons rear half.  In other words, the light cavalry is facing to the left.

What may the war wagon do?

A half turn of 180° does it no good

It may not wheel as the rear portion of the base would leave the ZOC

A quarter turn where it pivots on a front corner, would move the rear half of its base out of the ZOC which is not allowed.

May it turn such that it’s front edge is moved into the light cavalry ZOC?

The definition of quarter turn on page 31 does not require pivoting on a corner although the example on page 32 does specify that as being done.

Because unless it can turn like that, it’s kind of stuck.  With a six point unit having a one in 12 chance of inflicting a cohesion loss on the 8 point WWG every turn while it can do nothing, sitting there pinned.

[SteveR]

Even if it can turn, that doesn’t do it much good.

Since it does not exert a ZOC the enemy light cavalry can then just reposition onto its flank, and do it again.

It looks like more wagons with blades should always be escorted…..  unless I’m missing something

I guess this explains why bladed war wagons did not take over the world 

[Mark G Fry]

I have it in my head Steve that this is a change from v.3 where War Wagons neither exerted a ZoC or were affected by an enemy ZoC. But I might be wrong here.
Somebody produced a really helpful and definitive guide to how War Wagons worked for v.3 - but I'm not sure it was updated for v.4. But that would be really helpful.

Your dilemma appears to be correct (from what I can read) your WWg Blades is stuck and an 'ordinary' War Wagon is even more stuck (as it cannot charge away the LH).

Neither can 'evade' out of the LH ZoC (as WWGs cannot Evade: page 47) but as I read it (page 37) neither does it have to turn to make a move that will exit the ZoC, as they have no flank or rear. They will simply move backwards out of the LHs ZoC.
They will suffer a Disorder, & it will cost you 2CP to make the move, but once it has one Disorder on it it wont suffer any more - for undertaking the same maneuver (3rd bullet on Page37 under Units that cannot evade).

The only other thought I have (& this may be wrong with a WWG Blade) is that as all sides of a War Wagon count as a front edge for combat, maybe your WWG Blade just simply charges the LH to its side (not its flank as it doesn't actually have a flank). I am looking for somewhere in the rules that states a WWg must move from it's 'short' edge - I suspect it is in here somewhere but it's not obvious (to me at present).
However page 30 in Movement simply states "a simple movement is a straight forward advance ..." - so what is straight forward to a unit that has (technically) no front edge?

Also, if a WWg Blades must move forward from its short edge - Page 32 states that where a WWg makes a 1/4 turn (which it is allowed to do) it can then shift 1UD to its right or left.
So your ZoC'd WWg Blades turns to its right - which means it has technically left the ZoC of the LH, however, as it does so it immediately slides 1UD to its right and then ends up back in the LH's ZoC and in a position to charge it.

Personally, I think a moving WWGg being ZoC'd by a LH is a total nonsense and WWgs should be exempt from enemy ZoCs. Especially those that cannot initiate combat.

I'm not sure all this is much help ...

Cheers
Mark

[SteveR]

Thank you for the thoughts Mark.

I saw the 1UD shift possibility but if you look at the example the shift happens after the turn and so has no impact on the ZOC situation.  

I am pretty confident that War Wagons may not charge to their side.

I had not considered the retreat out of the ZOC rule, however, if the war wagon does, so, it’ll pick up a cohesion loss as you say, and then the light Cavalry just repositions to do it again.

[KevinD]

Doesn’t the 3rd bullet of the errata for page 36 allow the WWg to make a 90 degree turn?

Also, the ZOC rules on edges leaving a ZOC during a Advance on p 36 3rd bullet only require front edges in ZOC to remain in the ZOC, they do not prohibit side or rear edges from exiting from ZOCs when advancing on the ZOCing enemy.

[SteveR]

Thank you, Kevin

I don’t think the errata on page 36 helps.  The third bullet just emphasizes that this is done when the unit is not charging.

However, it is true, that a 90° turn, even if it moves the rear portion of the war wagon out of the ZOC, does result in the front edge getting closer to the most threatening enemy.  So maybe the turn is allowed.

I think you’re on to something there

And the sub bullets on page 36 3rd bullet do seem to all be met.  So, perhaps the turn can be made.

However, since a war wagon turn costs two UD of movement, it may not charge.

And the enemy can once again reposition to torment the war wagon.

Spending one CP where the war wagon spends two CP

So, at the end of the day, this may turn out to be a feature, and not a bug.

I’m just used to using war wagons on a flank as a blocking force but perhaps bladed ones need to have their flanks covered and charge straight forward

[KevinD]

Ultimately I think bladed war wagons (historically) may not really be designed for protecting your flanks (perhaps unlike shooting wagonburg types) but rather for pushing into the face of the enemy line, and if I remember my history right, disrupting elephants or the like.

I also think that bladed war wagons on deep bases doesn’t really reflect deep formations (like a line of linked wagonburgs might) but rather just a gaming convenience for basing deep models on our table tops.

So them being somewhat vulnerable to light horse swinging around their flanks and shooting at them doesn’t really bother me, especially if the light horse have enough C3 to keep dancing/swarming around.

But I guess that’s not really the Q you asked….

[Mark G Fry]

The more I read in the rules about how WWgs operate the more that them being ZoC'd - especially by LH - seems a bit of a nonsense (to me anyway).

As the rules allow WWgs to move on the battle-field (table top) which, other than the WWg Blades is not particularly historically accurate*, then allowing LH to ZoC them into a standstill seems unjust. Admittedly, most WWg (the non-bladed types) usually have some sort of missiles to 'shoot-off' enemy LH but still. It does make WWgs vulnerable to LH which seems a bit ironic.

*NB: at Kutna Hora 1421AD - the battle used to justify that WWGs move about on a battlefield - the Hussite wagons were attacked by the Crusaders whilst they were withdrawing. It was not like they were maneuvering for advantage like modern day tanks

Whilst I am slowly getting used to the v.4 change about LH ZoCs - I think that this might be one of those cases where things have gone a bit far (IMHO)

[Hazelbark]

[Mark G Fry]

Indeed Dan - we are agreed on that. Some set of rules I played in the past (the name escapes me) had them as deployable terrain. That seemed to work quite well.

SteveR's issue around the ZoC'ing of WWgs which in effect paralyzes them in the game - which I think is probably an over zealous way to restrict their movement. In fact it almost makes them unplayable and actually forces the very behaviours that RBS so frowned upon - the set-up and sit & wait tactic.

I'm not sure if such a dramatic effect was envisages around the LH ZoC and WWgs - but it seems a shame that after v.3 made WWGs do much more playable (but not a super army) that v.4 has again cast them to one side.

I cannot see a way that a ZoC'd WWg can un-ZoC itself - not being allowed to charge or evade. Can you?

[KevinD]

Missile armed WWg can pretty decisively outshoot LH. (0 vs 1 with only 2 CPs with double the range compared to -1 vs 2 with 3 CPs. This is an awful matchup for LH. The only real question is whether they can resolve it in time to win the game or if it will be unresolved by the end of the game.)

Non missile armed WWg should not be surrounded by LH (although they are not really vulnerable from LH shooting).

[Mark G Fry]

[KevinD]

I don’t think LI ZOC WWg. They only block their movement if the LI physically blocks the WWg’s move.

Further I sort of thought WWg were supposed to be closely supported by HI - such as Hussite flailmen, etc.

[Mark G Fry]

[SteveR]

I think the shooting war wagons work reasonably well. If pinned, they then become static fortresses which is reasonable.

LI cannot zoc them but it seems to me that zocing a bladed war wagon is a pretty easy way to emasculate it.

I'm not too fussed about the historicality aspect, more the game one. From the description of the plaustrella functionally they seem to me to be more like slow, non-impetuous scythed chariots.

As I look in more detail about the zoc rules I think that they cannot wheel to get out of the zoc. The page 36 bullets are met with the exception of sub bullet two - a part of the front edge will end up farther away from the enemy's front edge than they were at the start. At least if I assume the LC is .5 UD away then the furthest part of the front edge is 1.8 UD away before the wheel and just over 2 UD away after the wheel. If my pythagorus is correct.

As for the rest of the discussion remember that only foot my interpenetrate war wagons and only through the narrowest part. As in directly through from long edge to long edge. Since that is 1 UD and heavy foot have a 2/3 or 3/4 UD depth minimum with a 1 UD move that is pretty restrictive. And if the enemy gets close enough not allowed if there is not any room.