Auteur |
Message |
Three
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017 Messages: 188
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 2:11 pm Sujet du message: Impetuous cavalry - in pursuit of evaders query |
|
The situation is set out below
Impetuous HC facing down player A
Light Cavalry facing up player B
HC Impact facing up player B
Dashes are spaces.
---
----
---
The distance between the LC and the HC impetuous is 1 UD
The distance between the LC and the HC behind them is 4 UDs. and they are slightly offset.
Player A charges the LC, who roll down. Player A rolls up. The LC turn and evade. The right hand 1 has enough movement to evade.
The left hand 1 does not, cannot get fully through and ends up sitting in front of it's own HC, and struck in the rear by the charging HC impetuous, who will be able to conform as a fighting unit and a supporting unit on each side by a small conformation movement to their left, right as you look at the page.
So far so simple. There are no issues with other units, ZoCs etc.
However, a discussion arose about what happens to Player A's right hand unit (left as you look at the page). Player A suggested that since it hasn't got a secondary target within charge range, and the evading LC who got away wasn't within his initial charge range, it should stop with the rest of the line and conform to maintain group integrity.
Player B suggested that it was a group charge against a group target who evaded, and since 1 of the evading group got away, the HC impetuous group is still pursuing the evaders, it's initial target, (even though the one who got away can't be caught) and should therefore continue it's full movement allowance of 5 UDs (4 and the variable roll of +1).
Relevant rule is page 43, section 8, 2nd bullet point.
The crux of the question is whether a group charge v a group evade is the way to think about this interaction or whether it's the individual units that charge, it's their relationship to the individual evading units that determines the outcome?
Opinion was split, there were eventually 5 of us involved in this discussion - what do the panel think? |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 472
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 6:56 pm Sujet du message: |
|
I think the starting point is bullet 1 of S.8 on p.43:
"The units of a charging group who have not contacted an enemy...."
I read that as the test being applied to each and every unit of the charging group that has not made contact with the enemy. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 527
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 8:08 pm Sujet du message: |
|
How does the right hand LC have enough distance to evade? He does not slide around the HC behind him, he also needs to interpenetrate, |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Three
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017 Messages: 188
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 8:55 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Mike Bennett a écrit: | How does the right hand LC have enough distance to evade? He does not slide around the HC behind him, he also needs to interpenetrate, |
It wasn't my game. The use of emojis might have have squeezed the situation, the situation was as described when opinions were sought. 2 experienced players who were happy that 1 LC got away and one didn't. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Three
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017 Messages: 188
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 8:57 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Zoltan a écrit: | I think the starting point is bullet 1 of S.8 on p.43:
"The units of a charging group who have not contacted an enemy...."
I read that as the test being applied to each and every unit of the charging group that has not made contact with the enemy. |
Don't disagree
Your view therefore is that the HC impetuous in question would not continue the charge and conform with the other 3 to maintain the integrity of the group? |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1185
Localisation: London
|
Posté le: Mer Mar 20, 2024 10:36 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Step 8, 2nd bp says that impetuous units must continue a charge if there are other enemy in range.Â
As described, the charging HC will stay in contact with the evading LC, but would be out of range of the static HC to their rear. If the units were closer, then one of those charging HC would have to continue into contact. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1585
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 12:45 am Sujet du message: |
|
Ramses II a écrit: | Step 8, 2nd bp says that impetuous units must continue a charge if there are other enemy in range.Â
|
Section 8 says "Mandatory for all impetuous...if they are pursing evading units" The initial charge was on units that evaded and the chargers are pursuers. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 472
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 8:44 am Sujet du message: |
|
Based on the OP, the distance between the HC Impetuous and the HC Impact appears to be almost 6UD:
HC Impetuous to LC 1UD
LC base depth
LC to HC Impact 4UD
So even though the HC Impetuous have “thrown upâ€, they will not reach the HC Impact. So, do those HC Impetuous who have no ability to contact any enemy count as “pursuers†who must continue the charge to the maximum? I guess that’s the heart of the OP question.
Similarly, take a line of 6 HC impetuous cavalry (123456) with 1 enemy LC directly in front of HC 1. The group charges and the LC evades. Are HC 3-6 pursuers (they have no enemy in front if them) who MUST travel the same distance as HC 1&2? |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Three
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017 Messages: 188
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 9:07 am Sujet du message: |
|
Zoltan a écrit: | Based on the OP, the distance between the HC Impetuous and the HC Impact appears to be almost 6UD:
HC Impetuous to LC 1UD
LC base depth
LC to HC Impact 4UD
So even though the HC Impetuous have “thrown upâ€, they will not reach the HC Impact. So, do those HC Impetuous who have no ability to contact any enemy count as “pursuers†who must continue the charge to the maximum? I guess that’s the heart of the OP question.
Similarly, take a line of 6 HC impetuous cavalry (123456) with 1 enemy LC directly in front of HC 1. The group charges and the LC evades. Are HC 3-6 pursuers (they have no enemy in front if them) who MUST travel the same distance as HC 1&2? |
Exactly that.
Dan's reply above suggests that they are pursuing the evaders and must go full distance.
This doesn't have any effect on the point under discussion, as the HC Impact could not be reached by the charging HC Impetuous, but for Mike's information, the gap between the LC and the HC Impact was slightly closer, allowing the successfully evading LC to get a toe past the HC Impact's rear edge. There was a further unit behind the HC Impact that prevented the unsuccessful unit's ability to interpenetrate. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 472
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 9:55 am Sujet du message: |
|
And just to be clear, I put “pursuers†in quotes; these guys are chargers chasing evaders, not victorious melee-ists making a Pursuit move per those rules. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1185
Localisation: London
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 10:22 am Sujet du message: |
|
The text from section 8, 2nd bp is
Citation: | Continuing a charge is optional for non-Impetuous units. It is mandatory for all Impetuous units but only if they can contact a new enemy or if they are pursuing evading units unless this would result in any of the "Exceptions to uncontrolled charges" (see p 46). |
Here three of the Impetuous HC are pursuing the evading LC. The fourth HC is part of the group, but it is not able to contact any new enemy, nor is it  actually “pursuing†the original enemy as it cannot make contact.
Therefore I suggest it may halt with the others. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 542
Localisation: Texas
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 2:51 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Wouldn’t the last HC Impetuous stop in position to provide melee support to its neighbor who will be in combat? |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
Three
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017 Messages: 188
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 4:23 pm Sujet du message: |
|
KevinD a écrit: | Wouldn’t the last HC Impetuous stop in position to provide melee support to its neighbor who will be in combat? |
No, the 3 conform with 1 fighting and 1 in support on each flank. It's the 4th unit that doesn't make contact or end up in a support position that is under discussion. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4746
Localisation: paris
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 5:26 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Different move distance for each Lh is surprising.
Cv impetuous charging must do the ajusted movement charge, except if they contact ennemies or support a unit contacting a ennemy. AND THAT'S ALL. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 542
Localisation: Texas
|
Posté le: Jeu Mar 21, 2024 8:09 pm Sujet du message: |
|
Three a écrit: | KevinD a écrit: | Wouldn’t the last HC Impetuous stop in position to provide melee support to its neighbor who will be in combat? |
No, the 3 conform with 1 fighting and 1 in support on each flank. It's the 4th unit that doesn't make contact or end up in a support position that is under discussion. |
Thanks. I didn’t realize there was already one in simple support on each side |
|
Revenir en haut de page |
|
|
|