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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1544
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 Posté le: Lun Fév 02, 2015 6:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Muntaner a écrit: |
Medium Spearmen get impact if they are frontally charged by non-Impact (& non-elephant) mounted? I'm not finding that in the English version of the rules. Could you direct me to where it might be? Thanks! |
Page 20 the line for Medium Spearman. |
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Muntaner
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2015
Messages: 19
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 02, 2015 7:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Hazelbark a écrit: | | Muntaner a écrit: |
Medium Spearmen get impact if they are frontally charged by non-Impact (& non-elephant) mounted? I'm not finding that in the English version of the rules. Could you direct me to where it might be? Thanks! |
Page 20 the line for Medium Spearman. |
That page was stated to be a mistake. From the original post of this thread:
| hcaille a écrit: | There was a question about Medium Spearmen abilities in the french forum.
To be clear :
Medium spearmen cancel impact of mounted troops
But only Heavy spearmen and Pikemen keept their impact ability against a charging monted with impact (see P 17)
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Then the following examples are given:
| hcaille a écrit: |
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry without impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 1 with impact = +2
Cavalry = 1 + 1 bonus in the first round = +2
So it is equal factor
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry with impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 0 (it has no impact in this case) = +1
Cavalry = 1 + 0 (impact cancelled by spearmen) = +1
So it is equal factor again but Cavalry have the furious charge effect
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However, I can't find anywhere in the rules where the Medium Spearmen get the underlined bonus:
| Citation: | Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry without impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 1 with impact = +2 |
I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says that Medium Spearmen get impact when frontally charged by non-Impact mounted. If there isn't that rule anywhere, then the examples work out like this:
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry without impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 0 (it has no impact) = +1
Cavalry = 1 + 1 bonus in the first round = +2
Cavalry have net +1 factor on the first round.
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry with impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 0 (it has no impact) = +1
Cavalry = 1 + 0 (impact cancelled by spearmen) = +1
Equal factor (but Cavalry have the furious charge)
If page 20 is correct (and page 17 is wrong), then the examples work out like this:
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry without impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 1 for impact = +2
Cavalry = 1 + 1 bonus in the first round = +2
Results in equal factor.
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry with impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 1 for impact = +2
Cavalry = 1 + 0 (impact cancelled by spearmen) = +1
Medium spearmen have +1 factor (but Cavalry has furious charge).
I really wish Page 20 was correct, because under the rules presented on page 17 early conclusions out here are that Medium Spearmen fall into a "master of none" category. Maybe more games will change that opinion. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 02, 2015 10:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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Umm...my page 20 quite clearly says:
Medium Spearmen impact vs. mounted except elephant.
From what I can tell medium spearmen fight all mounted (except El) at even factors. |
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sebastosfig
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 04 Oct 2008
Messages: 1092
Localisation: Lisboa
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 02, 2015 10:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ethan, you are right, apart from the cataphracts and knights 
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1544
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 02, 2015 10:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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| I think the difference comes from the descriptions on p 13-14 MI Spear vs HI spear and the wording on p 20. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 1:36 am Sujet du message: |
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| sebastosfig a écrit: | | Ethan, you are right, apart from the cataphracts and knights |
In impact they are equal in melee they are down I believe (and against Heavy Chariots as well). |
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Muntaner
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2015
Messages: 19
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 1:53 am Sujet du message: |
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| ethan a écrit: | Umm...my page 20 quite clearly says:
Medium Spearmen impact vs. mounted except elephant.
From what I can tell medium spearmen fight all mounted (except El) at even factors. |
Check page 13 & 14.
Page 13 says that Medium Spearmen cancels the impact of mounted units (if they receive the charge frontally).
Page 14 says that Heavy Spearmen cancels the impact of mounted units and gets the impact ability against mounted (if they frontally receive the charge).
This contradicts what was said on page 20. The original post of this thread by hcaille is confirming that page 13-14 is correct and page 20 is wrong.
My question arises because hcaille then gives the following example (underline is mine for emphasis):
| hcaille a écrit: | Examples :
Medium spearmen charged by a Cavalry without impact
Medium spearmen = 1 + 1 with impact = +2
Cavalry = 1 + 1 bonus in the first round = +2
So it is equal factor |
Other than the typo on page 20 (which hcaille states is wrong), I cannot find anything in the rulebook that gives Medium Spearmen impact against mounted units without impact. Or mounted units at all, for that matter. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 3:13 am Sujet du message: |
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OK I see the reason for the confusion now. Read hcaille carefully.
| Citation: | To be clear :
Medium spearmen cancel impact of mounted troops
But only Heavy spearmen and Pikemen keept their impact ability against a charging monted with impact (see P 17) |
Which is not the same as not getting impact against mounted without impact. What is written on page 20 is correct, medium spearmen get impact versus mounted - except that mounted with impact cancel that ability just like mounted with impact cancel impact for swordsmen of all types.
This then makes hcaille orginal post make sense and presumably he knows what the rules say and/or intended to say after cleaning up typos. I don't actually think there any typos here just that the rules are not 100% clear. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 3:15 am Sujet du message: |
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This also suggests that medium spearmen fight impact/impetous knights are at:
+0 base factor for m. Spear vs. +1 for knights as impact is cancelled.
vs. non impact/impetous knights it is
+0 base fact +1 impact vs. +1 for knights
I believe. |
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Muntaner
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2015
Messages: 19
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 3:48 am Sujet du message: |
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| ethan a écrit: | What is written on page 20 is correct, medium spearmen get impact versus mounted - except that mounted with impact cancel that ability just like mounted with impact cancel impact for swordsmen of all types.
This then makes hcaille orginal post make sense and presumably he knows what the rules say and/or intended to say after cleaning up typos. I don't actually think there any typos here just that the rules are not 100% clear. |
Oh, I never doubted what hcaille said. I just wanted to know how he got there. 
Now that I read the impact rule page 17, I see how it works out. I agree that its not very clear.
Its too bad, because those factors make Medium Spear very Master of None. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4712
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 11:50 am Sujet du message: |
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I can't answer about english version, but in french it's written on page 20, with pécsion page 17 aboit impact.
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"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Muntaner
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2015
Messages: 19
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 4:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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The part that was confusing was that the Heavy Spearmen entry specifically stated they get the impact when frontally charged by mounted. The Medium Spearmen entry doesn't have that phrase.
But I see it now: page 20 is correct (and page 13 in fact should have a line that says Medium Spearmen get impact vs mounted), with page 17 (i.e. the Impact section) clarifying the situation. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4712
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 5:31 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Muntaner a écrit: | | ethan a écrit: | Umm...my page 20 quite clearly says:
Medium Spearmen impact vs. mounted except elephant.
From what I can tell medium spearmen fight all mounted (except El) at even factors. |
Check page 13 & 14.
Page 13 says that Medium Spearmen cancels the impact of mounted units (if they receive the charge frontally).
Page 14 says that Heavy Spearmen cancels the impact of mounted units and gets the impact ability against mounted (if they frontally receive the charge).
This contradicts what was said on page 20.
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No it doeqsn't contredict. This woulb be if , by exemple P 13 say ''only heavy spearmen have impact on cavalry '' and P 20 said "medium spearmen have impact on cavalry". Clearly, it's not.
On the same way, it's not said P15, topic "elephants" , that elephants have impact again almost all troops. And this do not contredict P20.
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"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Muntaner
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 30 Jan 2015
Messages: 19
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 7:45 pm Sujet du message: |
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Didn't say it contradicted. Said it was a bit confusing.
Especially for a newbie reading the rules. You'll note I never said anyone was wrong. Rather I was asking for the location of the rules that made hcaille's examples make sense, assuming (correctly) that there was simply something I missed.
Moving on. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 03, 2015 10:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Muntaner a écrit: | | Its too bad, because those factors make Medium Spear very Master of None. |
This I agree with and on my relatively limited playing so far I am particularly dubious about any Medium Spearmen improved over their base 7 point abilities (i.e. elite or armored). I think you are just paying extra points for something that still can't beat anything without an overlap. |
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