Art De La Guerre

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Ven Oct 22, 2021 10:52 pm Sujet du message: Conforming to flank

This is a really basic question that doesn't seem to be addressed. Maybe I'm remembering too much DBxxx...

Two units attack an enemy, one in simple support immediately adjacent to the main unit. Completely vanilla.

Melee does not get resolved and attacker has another turn. Can the supporting unit now wheel into the flank of the defender?
Or must they slide forward this turn and wheel the next?

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BTW in case anyone is taking notes, the Type of Contact on page 41 is technically incorrect. A unit exactly on the the line extending the front of an enemy unit can neither attack the enemy's front nor flank edges! Shocked

AlanCutner · Post� le: Sam Oct 23, 2021 8:48 am Sujet du message:

If the two units attacked as a group then the supporting unit cannot be past the front edge of the defender, so 'no' it cannot move on to the flank. Instead it can move forward on its turn to be in a position to turn flank the move after that.

Dickstick · Post� le: Sam Oct 23, 2021 9:33 am Sujet du message:

Keep up the perseverance in moving away from Dbxxx way of reading things.
Your "exactly on the line" situation is to be found in the front contact definition on p41.
You just need time to find it.
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Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 9:37 pm Sujet du message:

I'm rather distressed with the lack of response to this question. I vowed not to follow up until 100 views, but here we are. Smile

Let me clearly restate the question:

In EXAMPLE 1 on page 65 can the HI in simple support wheel into the flank of the Ph in their next turn?

Alan kindly replied, "No, they must advance in one turn, and wheel in the next." I have no doubt that that is how he and his group learned, teach, and play the game. But that brings up the next question:

Where is this explained in the rule book?

Since neither he nor anyone else suggested where, I assume his opinion is based on word of mouth.

Dickstick suggested looking at page 41. It certainly seems to be the right place. But what it says is:

madaxeman · Post� le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 10:09 pm Sujet du message:

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make here. To me, the rules are clear, and they appear to be clear to everyone else also - I really can't see what point you are trying to make.

It would be perhaps useful to know if this passage in the rules is one your regular face to face opponents also have issues with, as if they have not raised it as an issue it may be easier for you to resolve this point to your satisfaction by talking it over with fellow players at your club or FLGS to get their views, rather than debating it with puzzled strangers on an international forum?
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Dickstick · Post� le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 10:10 pm Sujet du message:

When two enemy units contact and conform to each other frontally they are not mounting each other but in contact on opposite sides of a line.
This is the line considered in the three contact situations you quote.
No one is ever on the line .

Just as in differential maths the hare never catches the tortoise, it is behind then ahead but never along side.

So your simple support is on the same side of the line as the friend in frontal contact, so under the definition of frontal contact the support can only charge frontally.

In simple player term one needs to move first to a position from which you are correctly positioned under flank or rear contact definition to then launch a charge.

The game is about getting behind enemy flanks or keeping enemy to ones front where support is unavailable.
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

Ramses II · Post� le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 11:40 pm Sujet du message:

KevinD · Post� le: Dim Oct 31, 2021 1:14 am Sujet du message:

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Dim Oct 31, 2021 3:38 am Sujet du message:

I think what Dickstick is reaching for is, "if the front edge is on the s.l.e.t.e.f.e. then if the rest of the unit is in front you can make front contact, if the rest of the unit is behind, you can make flank contact." Simple and clear.

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Lun Nov 01, 2021 4:37 pm Sujet du message:

Madaxeman your blog and your description of converting your Han is what inspired me to spring for the rulebook. I don't have a grizzled ADLG veteran within an easy 3 hour drive to go consult. The forum is my club and you are my fount of wisdom. What is your point?

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I stand by my statement, although "pivot" would be more sensible than "wheel". No need to spend the CP if you don't have to.

I went through every diagram in the Melee and Conformance sections. I looked at those on page 41. I read the appropriate section in Conformance and the others as well. The answer is not to be found there.
Which is just as well. If the answer were somewhere else, the rules would be disorganized. Instead it's just a fundamental but easily corrected flaw in the definition.

It is the nature of things that working with four iterations over a decade will make it increasingly difficult to separate what is understood from what is presented. That's why I'm offering my fresh-eyed perspective now, before I get ground down.

Ramses II · Post� le: Mar Nov 02, 2021 12:13 am Sujet du message:

Ok, realise that these rules are written in French and then translated into English. No ‘Technical writers’ are involved (which seems to be what you are seeking) and consequently they are not perfect.

That said, we have tried to explain where the points raised are covered by the rules - as defined by the author, and worked out in practice over many years by hundreds of players worldwide.
In this instance please accept the definitions presented and try to use them, rather than arguing for some change that is incorrect.