Art De La Guerre

[ALEXANDER]

Is there a tactic how to win with Pikes or Heavy Spearmen frontally against Heavy Cavalry Impetuous or HC Impact?

Normally this shouldn't even be worth questioning. We all know the movie Braveheart. The cavalry should attack on its own and then be slaughtered. Some wargamers might be even reminded of the poem of the Charge of the light Brigade.

But in ADLG Cavalry does not have to attack ... and the infantry loses all their advantages when they themselves start the attack, ....even if this attack happens as a spontaneous attack below 1 UD.

In addition if Pikemen attack, the cavalry might simply disengage from the fight in his turn. So he will keep his impact bonus and furious charge with every further attack of the pikemen.
You also can't place light infantry in front of the pikes to enforce a uncontrolled attack.
Looks to me like the Heavy Cavalry is behaiving more like Huns
... and not like the Normans at Hastings

[ALEXANDER]

Do you understand my questions?

I could add Heavy Chariots impetuous to the liist of cavalry enemies. All these mounted troop type are cheaper, faster or more flexible than ordinary Pikemen.
They even have armour protection.in combat
(Swiss elite pikemen or Greek Agyraspided even cost 13 points)

Pikemen should be the Nemesis.for all these mounted.
Spearmen should be at least equal or better,

but instead instead of beeing wiped out
the mounted are able to stop the Infantry movement
and even win a close combat, if the infantry attacks.

Did I miss something?

[AlanCutner]

There are several ways Sp/Pk can win.

1. If the Sp/Pk charge they are +1/+2 vs +1. On subsequent rounds they are +1/+2 vs 0 if nothing else has happened. Not terrible.
2. If the Sp/Pk are charged its +2/+3 vs 0.
3. As a result Sp/Pk are good at holding enemy cav in place - just pin them to take them out of the game. Whilst they're held other troops can work the cav flanks.
4. Linked to 3, including one or two Javelinmen or other medium infantry with the heavies gives you flanking options.
5. Just charge the cavalry. Generally does the job.

[AlanCutner]

Basically I think you underestimate the chances of Sp/Pk attacking cavalry.

[ALEXANDER]

[ALEXANDER]

[KevinD]

[Mike Bennett]

Against impetuous mounted i generally allow their supporting skirmishers to  shoot my heavy foot.   On hitting one of my spearmen one opponent was amazed that I was happy until he realised that his mounted would now have to spend 3cp every turn or charge.  

[ALEXANDER]

I did a mistake.
Heavy Chariots impetuous have to do a uncontrolled charge

YES
A unit of bowmen ​in the line of pikemen
would enforce a uncontrolled charge.

But I am not sure whether the HC would charge with all his units and lose them in combat against the Pikes
..or rather prefer to charge the bowmen with a single unit
Bowmen +3 versus HC +2 (armour + furious charge)
..and disengage in his next turn.

Hc impetuous could try to move into the zone of controll of the pikeman and oppose the bowmen with a Li.

and Heavy cavalry impact could still pin the pikemen.
...and have a Li most in front of the bowmen to avoid Hits from shooting

[Longtooth]

I would definitely charge your bow with a single heavy cavalry if you tried hiding it in your pike line (assuming, of course, that the rest of your line was zoc'd).

You cannot win with a cavalry army by simply charging forward and hoping for the best. You need to use a combination of outflanking manoeuvres and concentrating your attacks on the vulnerable points in the enemy line. Bowmen are the ideal target for a cavalry army.

Jesse

[ALEXANDER]

[quote="Longtooth"]I would definitely charge your bow with a single heavy cavalry if you tried hiding it in your pike line /quote]

If you charge the bowmen with your Hc Impetuous General there is a good chance of destroying the bowmen quickly.
...and start a flank attack on the pikemen next turn.

BOWMEN +3 (two supports)
HC General +3
(Armour+ furious charge)
The bowmen needs to be 2 better to inflict a single loss
In case of a tie the second round will be 2 against 2

Perhaps you should even sacrife 2 units to avoid the pikemen supports and give your general a combat factor of
Bowmen 1 against
Hc Impetuous General 3
(Armour furious charge)

[madaxeman]

[ALEXANDER]

Let's not petty the discussion.
The bowmen answer seems to be a solution.
But the original question was how to win frontally with spear or pike. Not how pikes can be used as superior melee support for bowmen.
Neither Alexander Macedons nor Later Swiss have bowmen to use this bow tactic.

If you start to mix bow into the pikemen frontline you will eventually become something like a Heavy Spearmen Bow. If the pikes mix a bow into the front then the cavalry player might also mix a swordmen impetuous into his frontline to neutralize that bowmen. ...or he attacks the bowmen with 7 Levy mediocre expendable in a row

As a result the line of pikemen will be pinned.
Is there another answer to the question.

[fdunadan]

The combat will at +0 or even +1 for the Bower if they scored a hit on shooting. That's 42% of losing, 42% of winning and 16% of draw. And you risk losing your general...
Since you charged, there will be another phase of combat before you can disengage. And this time it will be at +0 if the Cav won, -1 if a draw and -2 if the Bow won. And you risk your general again...
that's a very risky way of attack. Besides, even if you rout the Bower in the charge (17%), there may be a second line, or you can be shocked in the flank.
_________________
Audentes fortuna iuvat.

[ALEXANDER]