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Jhykronos
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Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015
Messages: 95
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 Posté le: Mar Juin 01, 2021 4:45 am Sujet du message: Points: Bow/Crossbowmen with Pavise vs mixed medium sword |
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Both cost 8 points.
The pavise gets you a +1 protection bonus that is not cumulative with cover.
Being mixed with medium swordsmen gives you a +1 protection bonus that -is- cumulative with cover.
AND you have a better melee factor against almost everything.
AND you cancel the impact of enemy impetuous swordsmen.
Am I missing something here, or do we have two troop types that cost exactly the same, but one is a preferable choice to the other in EVERY circumstance?
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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| Posté le: Mar Juin 01, 2021 6:33 am Sujet du message: |
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In period the pavise countered longbow.
Longbow drops the swordsmen protection but not the bowmens pavice protection.
In a medieval encounters ancient/classical match up, the mixed combo wins out of title choices.
Bring in facing longbow choices change.
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Jhykronos
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Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015
Messages: 95
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| Posté le: Mar Juin 01, 2021 8:34 am Sujet du message: |
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| Dickstick a écrit: | In period the pavise countered longbow.
Longbow drops the swordsmen protection but not the bowmens pavice protection.
In a medieval encounters ancient/classical match up, the mixed combo wins out of title choices.
Bring in facing longbow choices change. |
OK, I did miss the longbow thing, thanks. (Crossbows, too, right?)
But "in period" is not accurate... pavise can be found on all sorts of lists that would never be expected to face Medieval longbowmen.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1474
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mar Juin 01, 2021 10:01 am Sujet du message: |
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| Jhykronos a écrit: | | Dickstick a écrit: | In period the pavise countered longbow.
Longbow drops the swordsmen protection but not the bowmens pavive protection.
In a medieval encounters ancient/classical match up, the mixed combo wins out of title choices.
Bring in facing longbow choices change. |
OK, I did miss the longbow thing, thanks. (Crossbows, too, right?)
But "in period" is not accurate... pavise can be found on all sorts of lists that would never be expected to face Medieval longbowmen. |
Pavise also helps against crossbows, of which there are plenty pre-medieval and post-medieval... however another way to look at it is that it's a +1 point upgrade in a game in which +1 is the smallest possible increment in troop cost... and doubling the (nominal) costs of every unit in the game just to create a "half point" cost split to make the payoff between Pavise and Medium Sword/Bow a little different is going into a place where the juice becomes not worth the squeeze
Pavise is also pretty much always optional, so if you don't think it's worth it don't take Pavises. 
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4713
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mar Juin 01, 2021 6:42 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Jhykronos a écrit: | Both cost 8 points.
The pavise gets you a +1 protection bonus that is not cumulative with cover.
Being mixed with medium swordsmen gives you a +1 protection bonus that -is- cumulative with cover.
AND you have a better melee factor against almost everything.
AND you cancel the impact of enemy impetuous swordsmen.
Am I missing something here, or do we have two troop types that cost exactly the same, but one is a preferable choice to the other in EVERY circumstance? |
So, you know what choosing...
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Jhykronos
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 02 Aoû 2015
Messages: 95
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| Posté le: Mer Juin 02, 2021 1:35 am Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | | Jhykronos a écrit: | | Dickstick a écrit: | In period the pavise countered longbow.
Longbow drops the swordsmen protection but not the bowmens pavive protection.
In a medieval encounters ancient/classical match up, the mixed combo wins out of title choices.
Bring in facing longbow choices change. |
OK, I did miss the longbow thing, thanks. (Crossbows, too, right?)
But "in period" is not accurate... pavise can be found on all sorts of lists that would never be expected to face Medieval longbowmen. |
Pavise also helps against crossbows, of which there are plenty pre-medieval and post-medieval... however another way to look at it is that it's a +1 point upgrade in a game in which +1 is the smallest possible increment in troop cost... and doubling the (nominal) costs of every unit in the game just to create a "half point" cost split to make the payoff between Pavise and Medium Sword/Bow a little different is going into a place where the juice becomes not worth the squeeze
Pavise is also pretty much always optional, so if you don't think it's worth it don't take Pavises. |
Heh, I'm suspecting it's probably the other way around... that subtracting a point from the cost of medium swordsmen is the actual overreaction.
I guess we'll find out when we get enough data on V4 matches...
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1544
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| Posté le: Mar Juin 08, 2021 8:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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Lowering the cost of MI sword is interesting. I think there is a long term and short term impact. I get your precisely analysis unit to unit, let me share how I look at it army to army.
With things like the English longbow regrading, it is partially illusory as we did not have this troop in abundance before. In v3, the English longbow elite with stakes was perceived as over costed and under effect. Many an Englishman wept that they the longbow were not the automatic weapons of other rules. (humor intended there). Now we have a new troop type which many will rush to perceiving it as effective.
Then the general lowering of MI Sword, for the most part this was aimed at helping the mostly MI armies where the MI was perceived as not valuable in numbers versus a HI option of the same. So an army that has 12 MI sword in v3 now gets 14. When I realized that was the difference I became less concerned as that is not really game changing.
So I think of:
massed MI impetuous barbarians. 2 more units are helpful but not radical.
massed Elephant with MI. 2 more units, the armies often tended to be small and the MI is the crunchy bit, not sure this changes those significantly either.
that leaves the armies with 3-6 MI. So they get 3-6 more points not radical.
So when I look at it this way I am not really bothered because the change is actually something but not major.
Add in terrain was not common enough in v3, to make MI worth more. I now see, ok we may see more MI being somewhat more viable. All good.
At least that was my view. |
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