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Ballista
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018 Messages: 120
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Posté le: Jeu Oct 28, 2021 8:38 pm Sujet du message: Impetuous Heavy Infantry Movement in the Operational Zone |
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Impetuous Heavy Infantry - Movement costs outside 4UD of enemy
Heavy infantry starting a move in the operational zone may advance 3UD instead of 2UD
If they choose to only advance 2UD in the operational zone, how many CPs does this cost 1 or 2 ?
What happens if they choose or can only move between 2 and 3UD when they start in the operational zone
Is this 1 or 2CPs ? |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 4:06 am Sujet du message: |
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Ballista a écrit: | Impetuous Heavy Infantry - Movement costs outside 4UD of enemy
Heavy infantry starting a move in the operational zone may advance 3UD instead of 2UD
If they choose to only advance 2UD in the operational zone, how many CPs does this cost 1 or 2 ?
What happens if they choose or can only move between 2 and 3UD when they start in the operational zone
Is this 1 or 2CPs ? |
Looks like it is 2 CPs. But I suspect the intent is for it to be only 1CP, especially if part of the group starts in the tactical zone and can only move 2 UD and others are in the operational zone and can move 3UD.
P 29, “Movement Allowanceâ€, last bullet, “heavy infantry in open terrain may advance 3 UD instead of 2 UD….†The columns in the table below are also called “Movement Allowanceâ€.
P 34, “Difficult Maneuversâ€, last bullet, “An advance of less than a units full movement allowance (less any road bonus) …†cost an extra CP as a difficult move.
Road bonuses, but not any other type of movement bonus, are excluded from the difficult maneuver criteria.
But it’s such an awkward rule subject to gamey exploitation that I don’t think it was intended. Just get part of the enemy formation within 4UD and part beyond 4UD and the enemy has to spend an extra CP. |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 7:58 am Sujet du message: |
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There is no room for interpretation as the rules clearly state (i will shamelessly copy/paste your line Ballista as I don't have the rules to hand):
P 34, “Difficult Maneuversâ€, last bullet, “An advance of less than a units full movement allowance (less any road bonus) …†cost an extra CP as a difficult move.
Non-impetuous troops get to choose how far they move for 1 CP. It costs impetuous troops 2 CP if they move less than their full move. That can be less than 3UD in operational zone or less than 1UD in a wood for impetuous HI. It doesn't matter what the situation is. Move less than your full move and you pay the points. |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 716
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 8:02 am Sujet du message: |
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Citation: | P 34, “Difficult Maneuversâ€, last bullet, “An advance of less than a units full movement allowance (less any road bonus) …†cost an extra CP as a difficult move.
Non-impetuous troops get to choose how far they move for 1 CP. It costs impetuous troops 2 CP if they move less than their full move. That can be less than 3UD in operational zone or less than 1UD in a wood for impetuous HI. It doesn't matter what the situation is. Move less than your full move and you pay the points. |
I agree with this. But it contradicts what we're told (on fb group) Hubert has ruled. |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 8:52 am Sujet du message: |
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AlanCutner a écrit: | Citation: | P 34, “Difficult Maneuversâ€, last bullet, “An advance of less than a units full movement allowance (less any road bonus) …†cost an extra CP as a difficult move.
Non-impetuous troops get to choose how far they move for 1 CP. It costs impetuous troops 2 CP if they move less than their full move. That can be less than 3UD in operational zone or less than 1UD in a wood for impetuous HI. It doesn't matter what the situation is. Move less than your full move and you pay the points. |
I agree with this. But it contradicts what we're told (on fb group) Hubert has ruled. |
I object m'Lord: Hearsay! What does Mr. Finkel know about the law anyway?
I have requested Law Lord Commodore's official ruling on the matter. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 5:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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It's not quite white as snow. The parentheses around less any road bonus suggest it is a reminder rather than a necessary exception. Why would it be a reminder? Because the language on page 29 emphasizes that the road bonus is a player's choice. But the HI boost in the operational zone is presented as something of a choice too (may) rather than simply a different movement allowance in a different zone.
Ballista's other question also applies to the road bonus. Can an Impetuous unit use only a ½UD road bonus without CP penalty? Perhaps the any in the less any road bonus answers that. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1550
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 7:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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There are two questions at hand:
1) Is the HI moving only 2UD instead of 3 UD beyond tactical distance a 2 CP move.
A) El Kreator ruled somewhere (I think forum) that it is an optional 1 extra and therefore does not trigger the 2nd CP cost. i.e 1 CP.
2) Is HI moving other than 2 or 3 UD due to road or beyond tactical also only 1 CP or is it 2 CP? i.E. is exercising the 1/2 UD discretion triggering the unmanuverable CP penalty?
B) We do not have an El Kreator reply to this. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Ven Oct 29, 2021 10:45 pm Sujet du message: |
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I agree that increasing the movement allowance by road is optional, as noted by KevinD. Otherwise a line of units located across a road would automatically become split up etc.Â
I think the intention behind increasing Heavy Infanty movement outside Operational Zone was to speed up the game, allowing these troops the option of moving faster in the early stages of the game. However, as Snowhitsky says, the (English) text does not make this ‘operational’ manoeuvring optional.Â
As Commodore says, we must await the decision of ElKreator. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 11:32 am Sujet du message: |
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The oracle has spoken, so this is the official answer:-
When a unit moves on a road, moving the extra 1UD is always optional.Â
When HI move outside 4UD from an enemy their normal movement is 3UD, so anything less is a difficult move for Impetuous HI, which therefore costs 2CP. |
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vexillia
Signifer
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017 Messages: 354
Localisation: Warrington, UK
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 11:35 am Sujet du message: |
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Can the OP please add [Resolved] to the thread title for future reference. _________________ Martin Stephenson |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 1:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | The oracle has spoken, so this is the official answer:-
When a unit moves on a road, moving the extra 1UD is always optional.Â
When HI move outside 4UD from an enemy their normal movement is 3UD, so anything less is a difficult move for Impetuous HI, which therefore costs 2CP. |
So this means a group of impetuous HI that starts a move with some elements >= 4 UD from the enemy and others < 4 UD from the enemy will spend +1 CP to move, right?
That’s harsh. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 3:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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That's not harsh. You are under a miss interpretation .
If some of the HI group are within 4ud then the group move is 2ud max. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 4:15 pm Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | That's not harsh. You are under a miss interpretation .
If some of the HI group are within 4ud then the group move is 2ud max. |
I don’t think that’s the case. Where do the rules say they do not have a 3 UD maximum movement allowance if others in their group have a lower rate? Impetuous troops who slow down to move with slower troops (such as Impetuous MI groups that have some units in Open and some units in Difficult) pays the extra.
the official answer:
….
When HI move outside 4UD from an enemy their normal movement is 3UD, so anything less is a difficult move for Impetuous HI, which therefore costs 2CP.
I agree it would be a better rule if they could move 2 UD and avoid paying this penalty, but I don’t think that’s what the rules say, especially in light of the clarification above. |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 5:10 pm Sujet du message: |
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It's in the general rules. A group moves at the speed of the slowest unit. So if one unit of a group is within 4UD of the enemy the entire HI group's movement allowance is 2 UD. If they mive 2 UD then it's 1 CP. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Sam Oct 30, 2021 5:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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The same restriction applies to impetuous troops where part of the group are in penalising terrain.
Moral: avoid putting your troops into this situation where possible, or perhaps consider only moving part of the group . . . |
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