Art De La Guerre

[Mark G Fry]

IMHO - the Later Japanese list #280 is in need of an over hall, as it is not actually representative of the composition of the Muromachi (1336-1467) and early Sengoko (1467-1515 onwards) armies. This is primarily because during this era we see a change in mounted cavalry fighting styles and a change of weaponry by foot Samurai (from predominantly katana & naginata armed - 2HW), to being Yari (polearm) armed. Whilst the Yari was used pre 1467, it only became a massed use weapon from 1465 onwards. The Yumi (bow) as a Samurai weapon is also on the decline, both on foot and mounted, and we also see the rise of the use of Ashigaru reflected as a growing percentage of the armies.

The current list also has the historical anomalies of including heavy artillery* - when firearms were not introduced into mainstream Japanese warfare until 1543 and the Oyumi (ballista type artillery) had long been dropped as an archaic battlefield weapon. (* unless this is some sort of torsion catapult - but if it is I cannot establish its use in battle?).

Also the current list includes the ability to convert 4 Ashigaru to Pike (mediocre) when the 'Nagae yari' (or long shafted spear) was not introduced to Japanese warfare (by Oda Nobunaga) until at least the 1560 at the earliest.

The current list also includes 4 x Ikko-Ikki fanatics, which again is inaccurate as the Ikko-Ikki did not fight as part of a more conventional larger Samurai force (although smaller lower-status Samurai clans did support Ikko-Ikki campaigns, but they were the smaller allied contingent). NB: I've got a separate Ikko-Ikki list I will post.

I'd suggest the following list replaces list 280:


280: Muromachi & Early Sengoku Japanese

This list represents the forces of Feudal Japan during the Muromachi (1336–1467) & Early Sengoko (1467-1515) periods.
During this period Japanese armies became larger and more professional; battles were fought on a much larger scale and the role of foot soldiers, especially the non-Samurai Ashigaru, increased significantly. Following the chaos of the Ōnin War (1467–77) it also saw a change in fighting styles, particularly for mounted Samurai, as the bow (Yumi) was replaced with the polearm (Yari), which was used in a similar fashion to a cavalry lance. Some Clans developed a massed hard-charging approach to mounted combat in the early Sengoko period, but were often over-confident about their own superiority, occasionally to their own detriment. More provincial and poorer Clans continued to use Naginata & Katana, and Yumi armed troops until past the end of this list.
Whilst gunpowder was known in Japan from 1270, it saw no real practical military use. Hand-firearms were introduced to Japan in 1543, via the Portuguese, so falls outside the timeframe of this list.

Command: +4

Strategists: Yoshimitsu (1368-1408)

Camp: Standard

Field Fortifications: 0-12

Terrain: Plain, Mountain

Samurai: 8 - 32

HC Bow (Yumi) @ 11pts

HC Impact (Naginata and Katana) @ 10pts

HC Impetuous (Yari) post 1467 @ 9pts

HF swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 9pts

HF swordsmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 @ 9pts

MF swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 7pts

MF swordsmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 @ 7pts

MF swordsmen, Bow (Yumi) 0-4 maximum @ 9pts

Upgrade to Elite @ 2pts

Upgrade HF or MF Samurai without Yumi to armoured @ +2pts (up to 1/3rd fielded)

Add Pavice to Yumi armed MF sword, bow @ 1pt

Mounted Scouts: 0-4
LC, bow @ 6pts
upgrade to elite @ 1pt

Ashigaru: 4-24 (see Note:)
MF, swordmen, 2HW (Naginata) @ 7pts
MF, swordmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 @ 7pts
Downgrade to mediocre @ -2pts

Ashigaru (Yumi): 4-6 (see Note:)
Bowmen (mediocre) @ 5pts
upgrade to Ordinary @ +2pts
add Pavice @ 1pt

Ronin and Poorer Samurai: 0-6
MF, swordsmen @ 6pts
add 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 1pt
downgrade to Mediocre @ -2pts

Dismounted Scouts: 0-4
Light Infantry, bow @ 4pts

Local Peasantry: 0-6
Levy @ 3pts



Sōhei - Warrior Monk allies

Mounted warrior monks* 0-2
Medium Cavalry bow @ 9pts
Medium Cavalry impact (Naginata & katana) @ 8pts

Foot warrior monks* 0-4
Medium swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata) @ 7pts

Poorly armed monks 0-4
Medium swordsmen, mediocre @ 4pts
Levy @ 3pts


Note:

Mounted Samurai must all be armed the same (unless in an allied contingent)

Samurai HC Impetuous can only be fielded from 1467 onwards

Samurai and Ashigaru with Yari can only be fielded from 1467 onwards

Samurai with Yumi (foot or mounted) are limited to a maximum of 4 in total post 1467

A minimum of 4 Ashigaru of any type must be fielded

This list may include an allied contingent from the same list or a Sōhei - Warrior Monk allies (from the list above)

[Hazelbark]

Well when list update comes around we need to get you on the input.
So keep your footnotes.

A few general game reactions:
having a troop that can be so many different options is not going to fly. You're perilously close to just writing whatever you want.

In V4 the decision was clearly 2hw or polearm and people will need to pick one. So having both you will need to seriously defend with the 2hw being the least probable.

Are the upper limits really balanced? You have 82 bases in the main list. So again this is too flexible. Make decisions.

I assum you did the above in part because it is hard to make a decision based on the evidence we have that is what is required for a balanced game.
You have 20 MF Sword 2hw mediocre for 100 points. That is a risk of game breaking.

[madaxeman]

Maybe the list should just cover the Muromachi period up to 1467?

That would instantly and significantly clean things as then the entire period of transition to different weapons and tactics would be rendered out of scope?

It also doesn't look like there was any interaction with non-Samurai armies in that period, so only Samurai civil wars taking placeduring the start of the period of transition to gunpowder weapons would be "lost" to ADLG.
_________________
www.madaxeman.com

[Mark G Fry]

[Mark G Fry]

[Hazelbark]

[Mark G Fry]

A fair point regarding Elephants

However, Field Fortifications were used extensively in this era by all sides
But I accept you point.
Although I don't really see this as a 'killer' list - not intentionally anyway

I will submit a revised and reworked list taking onboard the feedback.
Cheers
Mark

[KevinD]

The idea to split the lists into sub lists by clan and or period makes sense and then use “Replace All” for some sub list lists makes sense. It might give the lists more “character” if the options were named for specific clans (perhaps representative ones rather an exhaustive list…) … just a thought.

Maybe also you should consider a minimum size for historical armies you are modeling in the lists so as not to include a small single clan army and instead focus the lists on reproducing armies from the major actions of the period. Just because the Dark Age British armies in the lusts cover armies down to several hundred or a thousand or so men, does not mean all lists should do so. Hellenistic lists for example don’t generally include small armies or detachments of these sizes ((which could have very different compositions) but instead focus on the core major field armies of each state. Again,just a thought…

[Mark G Fry]

Revised list below for consideration:

280: Muromachi & Early Sengoku Japanese

This list represents the forces of Feudal Japan during the Muromachi (1336–1467) & Early Sengoku (1467-1515) periods.

During this period Japanese armies became larger and more professional; battles were fought on a much larger scale and the role of foot soldiers, especially the non-Samurai Ashigaru, increased significantly. Following the chaos of the Ōnin War (1467–77) it also saw a change in fighting styles, particularly for mounted Samurai, as the Bow (Yumi) was replaced with the Polearm (Yari), which was used in a similar fashion to a cavalry lance. Some Clans developed a massed hard-charging approach to mounted combat in the early Sengoku period, but were often over-confident about their own superiority, occasionally to their own detriment. More provincial and poorer Clans continued to use Naginata & Katana (2HW), and Yumi (Bow) armed troops until past the end of this list.

Whilst gunpowder was known in Japan from 1270, it saw no real practical military use. Hand-firearms were introduced to Japan in 1543, via the Portuguese, so falls outside the timeframe of this list.

Command: +4

Strategists: Yoshimitsu (1368-1408)

Camp: Standard

Field Fortifications: 0-8

Terrain: Plain, Mountain

Samurai: 4 - 12

Mounted Samurai:
Heavy Cavalry, Bow (Yumi) @ 11pts
Heavy Cavalry, Impact (Naginata and Katana) @ 10pts
Heavy Cavalry, Impetuous (Yari) post 1467 only @ 9pts

Foot Samurai:
Heavy swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 9pts
Heavy swordsmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 only @ 9pts
Medium swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 7pts
Medium swordsmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 only @ 7pts
Medium swordsmen, Bow (Yumi) 0-4 maximum @ 9pts

Upgrade any Samurai (Foot or Mounted) to Elite @ 2pts
Upgrade Heavy swordsmen or Medium swordsmen Samurai, without Yumi to armoured @ +2pts (up to 1/3rd fielded)
Add Pavice to Yumi armed MF sword, bow @ 1pt

Mounted Scouts: 0-2
LC, bow @ 6pts
upgrade to elite @ 1pt

Followers or Ashigaru: 4-18 (see Note:)
MF, swordmen, 2HW (Naginata) @ 7pts
MF, swordmen, Polearm (Yari) post 1467 @ 7pts
Downgrade to mediocre, without 2HW @ -3pts

Followers or Ashigaru (Yumi): 2-4 (see Note:)
Bowmen (mediocre) @ 5pts
upgrade to Ordinary @ +2pts
add Pavice @ 1pt

Ronin and Poorer Samurai: 0-4
MF, swordsmen @ 6pts
add 2HW (Naginata & Katana) @ 1pt
downgrade to Mediocre @ -2pts

Dismounted Scouts: 0-2
Light Infantry, bow @ 4pts

Local Peasantry: 0-4
Levy @ 3pts

Note:
Mounted Samurai must all be armed the same (unless in an allied contingent)
If Mounted Samurai with Bow (Yumi) are selected, all Foot Samurai and Ashigaru can only be armed with 2HCW (Naginata & Katana) or Bow (Yumi).
Samurai Heavy Cavalry Impetuous can only be fielded from 1467 onwards and only if any Foot Samurai fielded are Polearm (Yari) armed, and Ashigaru are Polearm (Yari) or Bow (Yumi) armed.
Samurai and Ashigaru with Yari can only be fielded from 1467 onwards
Samurai with Yumi (foot or mounted) are limited to a maximum of 4 in total post 1467
A minimum of 4 Ashigaru of any type must be fielded
This list may include an allied contingent from the same list or a Sōhei - Warrior Monk allies (from the lists below).
Mounted or Foot Samurai in an allied list can be fielded differently armed from the main army, but all allied mounted Samurai must be fielded as the same type.

Sōhei - Warrior Monk allies:

Mounted warrior monks* 0-2
Medium Cavalry bow @ 9pts
Medium Cavalry impact (Naginata & katana) @ 8pts

Foot warrior monks* 0-4
Medium swordsmen, 2HW (Naginata) @ 7pts

Poorly armed or Novice monks: 0-4
Medium swordsmen, mediocre @ 4pts
Levy @ 3pts

I think that te above should address some of the issues raised above and hopefully wont allow a player to manipulate the list to form an 'uber' list
Mark

[Mark G Fry]

[KevinD]

Why aren’t Yari armed foot Spears? (Or pikes if very long.)

[Mark G Fry]

Because
A) very long Yari (pike mediocre) were not introduced until the 1560s

B) on foot Yari are actually used in a slashing motion against enemy foot. It also has 2 sharp lugs designed specifically to catch a horsemans armour or inflict injury as it is swung (against foot or mounted).The pointed blade of the Yari is used against horsemen (& foot) in the same way that a halberd point is. So it is classified as a Polearm.

Foot Samurai & Ashigaru were only trained to stand & receive a charge in the 1560s. So even the slightly longer Yari, used before then, were not used like traditional spears.

Cheers
Mark

[Jhykronos]

[Mark G Fry]

[quote="Jhykronos"
Of course, Japanese armies (and to a certain extent Chinese and other far eastern armies) are always a problem in these "generic" rules sets. There is not really an exact correspondence between how they functioned and how most of the classical and medieval western troop types defined by our games functioned.[/quote]

So very true Jhkronos.
Such as the Chinese 'dagger-axe' - is it really a polearm (?) as many had no pointed anti-cavalry blade.
Likewise the repeating crossbow or even the definition of some armoured East Asian and Steppe armoured cavalry as Cataphract.
But then we start to get into more and more (& more) definitions and weapon & troop types, often for very little real rules or 'play' benefit.

I also agree totally about the Nagae-Yari, as the formations tended to be much looser. Maybe MF spear elite might be a better choice of classification, but again, it is all a bit arbitrary as they do most definitely fall outside the time-frame for the Ancient & Medieval version of these rules.

Cheers
Mark

[Zoltan]

Nitpicking.

What does “became more professional” mean in the intro notes? Sounds like a modern-day term being retro-fitted to an historical time.

Do you mean the proportion of “mercenaries” increased (if that concept existed during the Samurai era) or weekend warrior Samurai became full-time fighters due to the frequency of battles?

Suggest simply delete those words as they seem anachronistic, or replace them with a more historically meaningful phrase.