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Ballista
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 122
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 Posté le: Sam Nov 25, 2023 9:41 pm Sujet du message: Impact and Javelins |
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I know it has been discussed here before just can't find that post 
Units with javelin in first round melee with impact unit - don't receive javelin bonus.
What if the unit with impact has it cancelled by
Contacted in melee support on flank by LI/LH
What about something like Elephants v LI/LH armed with javelins? do the Elephants retain the impact ability even though they don't have it against those units?
( So do the LI/LH javelin then get a bonus for javelin or not?) |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1670
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| Posté le: Sam Nov 25, 2023 10:03 pm Sujet du message: |
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So the Elephant question is specifically answered on p 19 Javelin last bullet.
Javelin counts.
One way to note that in addition is p 16 Elephants, 3rd bullet. The Elephant does not have impact. This is different than cancelling. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1670
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| Posté le: Sam Nov 25, 2023 10:08 pm Sujet du message: |
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Then on p63, Flank and rear 3rd bullet. See the last sentence.
So
Foot with impact fighting foot with Javelin. There is also a LH in melee support against the foot with impact.
So impact is cancelled by the LH on its flank.
However it still cancels the Javelin to its front.
So the trick is to see is this a situation where it is cancelled or does not apply. Those are distinctly different rule situations. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 650
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Sam Déc 02, 2023 4:59 am Sujet du message: |
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| It would be nice if it was explicitly laid out in list list or matrix which situations cancel and which factors and which do not do not…. |
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Three
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017
Messages: 204
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 03, 2023 4:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Hazelbark a écrit: | Then on p63, Flank and rear 3rd bullet. See the last sentence.
So
Foot with impact fighting foot with Javelin. There is also a LH in melee support against the foot with impact.
So impact is cancelled by the LH on its flank.
However it still cancels the Javelin to its front.
So the trick is to see is this a situation where it is cancelled or does not apply. Those are distinctly different rule situations. |
Dan, just to be absolutely clear, where the rules say "cancelled" then the impact of the attacker still means the javelin does not apply?
I'm thinking of a recent game where impact mounted charge light infantry javelin in rough terrain. We played it that impact was "cancelled" (page 18, Impact, 6th bullet point) by the terrain, and so the javelin factor would then apply. The use of "cancelled" in your reply suggests we played it wrong? |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1670
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 03, 2023 6:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Three a écrit: |
Dan, just to be absolutely clear, where the rules say "cancelled" then the impact of the attacker still means the javelin does not apply?
I'm thinking of a recent game where impact mounted charge light infantry javelin in rough terrain. We played it that impact was "cancelled" (page 18, Impact, 6th bullet point) by the terrain, and so the javelin factor would then apply. The use of "cancelled" in your reply suggests we played it wrong? |
What i am saying is that p 64, mounted units, 3rd bullet is right. "do not have" therefore since the mounted do not have impact, then yes the javelin would apply. So you played it correctly.
However if the impact was merely cancelled (p18 as you cite) then while it would not gain the impact modifier of +1 as it is cancelled it would still negate the javelin. However p 18 is going to be corrected in next errata as it is different from p 64 and p64 is right. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 650
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 03, 2023 7:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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So Dan,
1. Currently LI Jav in rough/difficult terrain does get its +1 vs. frontal contact against (nonElephant) Impact Mounted.
2. After the next errata +1 from Javelin will not apply under these circumstances.
3. Javelin does apply vs Elephants since Elephants do not count impact vs LI.
Right? |
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Three
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017
Messages: 204
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 03, 2023 8:50 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Hazelbark a écrit: | | Three a écrit: |
Dan, just to be absolutely clear, where the rules say "cancelled" then the impact of the attacker still means the javelin does not apply?
I'm thinking of a recent game where impact mounted charge light infantry javelin in rough terrain. We played it that impact was "cancelled" (page 18, Impact, 6th bullet point) by the terrain, and so the javelin factor would then apply. The use of "cancelled" in your reply suggests we played it wrong? |
What i am saying is that p 64, mounted units, 3rd bullet is right. "do not have" therefore since the mounted do not have impact, then yes the javelin would apply. So you played it correctly.
However if the impact was merely cancelled (p18 as you cite) then while it would not gain the impact modifier of +1 as it is cancelled it would still negate the javelin. However p 18 is going to be corrected in next errata as it is different from p 64 and p64 is right. |
Got it, it was the implied contradiction between 18 & 64 that was causing the confusion, all sorted. |
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Three
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 20 Déc 2017
Messages: 204
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 03, 2023 8:56 pm Sujet du message: |
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I hope Dan doesn't mind me replying on his behalf -
| KevinD a écrit: | So Dan,
1. Currently LI Jav in rough/difficult terrain does get its +1 vs. frontal contact against (nonElephant) Impact Mounted. Yes
2. After the next errata +1 from Javelin will not apply under these circumstances. No, the page 18 "cancelled" will be changed to the page 64 "does not count", so javelins will still apply under these circumstances
3. Javelin does apply vs Elephants since Elephants do not count impact vs LI. Yes
Right? |
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Neep
Signifer
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 301
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| Posté le: Lun Déc 04, 2023 11:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hope the following is helpful.
There are four Special Abilities that both modify the Melee die roll and can affect other Special Abilities: Stakes, Missile Support; Impact, Furious Charge.
| Code: | SPECIAL CANCELS OF/BY
ABILITY
Stakes Impact of mounted
Support Furious of mounted
Charge
Impact Impact of foot by mounted
Impact Impact of HCh and Ct by Kn
Impact Javelin
Furious Armor and
Charge Heavy Armor |
These Special Abilities are in turn affected by these situations:
| Code: | flank/rear penalizing fortifications missile stakes(5) impact(5)
attack(1) terrain(2) or obstacles support
Stakes
Support X
Impact X X(3) X(4) X X
Furious X X X X X
Charge
(1) Although very obscure, it appears the third bullet on p.63 confirms that flank/rear attack does NOT cancel the cancellation effects of these Special Abilities.
(2) Affects mounted only.
(3) Would include Impact foot and Javelin against Impact mounted in rough or difficult terrain. Also the unlikely case of Kn in rough or difficult terrain against HCh or Ct in open.
(4) As fortifications or obstacles will block both sides Impact, this includes only Javelin fighting across them.
(5) Added for completeness. Would require Impact or Armor behind Stakes, or LH Javelin+Impact... |
So seven questions:
Does Impact foot fighting Impact mounted in rough or difficult terrain get Impact bonus?
Does Javelin fighting Impact mounted in rough or difficult terrain get Javelin bonus?
Does HCh or Ct in open fighting Kn in rough or difficult terrain get Impact bonus?
Does Javelin fighting Impact troops across fortifications or obstacle get Javelin bonus?
Does Furious Charge suppressed by rough or difficult terrain cancel Armor and Heavy Armor?
Does Furious Charge suppressed by fighting across fortifications or obstacles cancel Armor and Heavy Armor?
Does Furious Charge suppressed by Missile Support cancel Armor and Heavy Armor? |
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