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Orlando Almeida
Centurion
Inscrit le: 10 Sep 2016
Messages: 458
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 Posté le: Lun Jan 06, 2025 9:16 pm Sujet du message: ligne de vue et tirer par-dessus une unitée amis |
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Question sur ligne de vue et tirer par-dessus d’unités.
Dans la page 57 nous avons les règles sur les lignes de vue et page 59 on a l’introduction du concept du tir par-dessus des unités.
Il n’est tout de même pas totalement clair quand on doit considérer qu’un tir est obligé à passer par-dessus une unité.
Je mets ci-dessous un exemple avec un charriot de guerre avec artillerie et savant que sont LI allié est à moins d’un UD et qu’il a l’ennemi en ligne de vue s’il peut ou pas tirer.
Au cas où l’opinion est qu’il n’est pas possible, je suppose que le motif soit le deuxième point du paragraphe « tiré par-dessus des unités » de la page 59 où on à l’indication que pour pouvoir tirer l’artillerie doit avoir le LI amis à plus d’un UD. Etant de cette sorte alors si le char n’est pas armé d’artillerie et oui d’arbalète peut-il alors tirer ? Ça serait bizarre non ?
Je croix qu’il manque un claire définition de quand on doit considérée qu’un tir passe dessus une unité. Est-il :
- Quand l’unité bloque la ligne de vue ?
- Quand l’unité est dans la zone comprise entre les 2 lignes d’une ligne de vue ?
- Autre chose ?
Merci ! |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Jan 07, 2025 12:16 pm Sujet du message: |
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Artillery ignored LI and LH, if the LI or LH are over 1UD from the Artillery and over 1UD from the artilleries target. Page 59 second bullet point in Shooting Overhead.
So you are correct that in your diagram the war wagon cannot shoot over/through the LI in front of it.
There is an interesting issue with War Wagons, in that as they are 2UD wide (on their firing side) and they can choose out of which of the two UDs they shoot from, therefore a War Wagon initially appears to be able to avoid this 1UD rule, if the LI unit is positioned only in front of just one half of the War Wagon's base.
However, if we look at Page 57 Line of Sight, it appears to be that the War Wagon cannot shoot over/through the LI in your example, as it cannot trace a line from both of its base corners to another target without the LI being within 1UD.
Personally I think the 1UD rule, in this instance (War Wagon mounted artillery) is punitive - but I can see why it's been put into the rules.
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Orlando Almeida
Centurion
Inscrit le: 10 Sep 2016
Messages: 458
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| Posté le: Mar Jan 07, 2025 8:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | | as they are 2UD wide (on their firing side) and they can choose out of which of the two UDs they shoot from |
thanks for your feedback Mark. But the WWg do count as giving overlap on melée, but for shooting they are a simple base. Line of Sight needs to be calculated from the corners of the flank of the base (8cm between them).
I've inserted a pink line to show that reading the rules on page 57 chapter "Line of Sight" we need to evaluate the 3rd bullet "Units out of line of sight"
Then reading the conditions to have a line of sight to the target, I need to have a line from the corners of my base toward a single point on the edge of my target. Looking at the shared diagram the situation complies to it.
Then we'll need to check if the los is blocked somehow and to check this the rules says that the lines used to target that single point can't be blocked by an intervening terrain or unit. Once again looking at the diagram, the lines aren't blocked.
So the point is to try to understand if Hervé fought:
- This shot can't be made because of the Area inside of the LOS has an unit, hence it also constitute a blockage
- This shot can be made, because you still have a considerable area of the target between the lines and the unit (you'll notice that on other valid shooting situations you can end-up with a lot less area) as this example:
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 758
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mar Jan 07, 2025 11:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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The purpose of drawing the lines from the shooter is to decide whether the shooter has line of sight to shoot past an obstacle, not over it. As in Orlando's diagram. Now take a look at this diagram:
Here the friendly LI unit has been moved so it is near to and in front of the Bowmen unit, but facing up the page. You can now draw two lines from the corners of the Bowmen unit to a single point on the Pike unit's base.
Are the Bowmen shooting overhead?
[rhetorical question - of course they are]
Are the Bowmen allowed to shoot the Pike?
[another rhetorical question - no, they can't shoot overhead)
Final question: Has this situation ever occurred in a game?
Dave
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 10:07 am Sujet du message: |
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| Orlando Almeida a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: | | as they are 2UD wide (on their firing side) and they can choose out of which of the two UDs they shoot from |
thanks for your feedback Mark. But the WWg do count as giving overlap on melée, but for shooting they are a simple base. Line of Sight needs to be calculated from the corners of the flank of the base (8cm between them).
I've inserted a pink line to show that reading the rules on page 57 chapter "Line of Sight" we need to evaluate the 3rd bullet "Units out of line of sight"
Then reading the conditions to have a line of sight to the target, I need to have a line from the corners of my base toward a single point on the edge of my target. Looking at the shared diagram the situation complies to it.
Then we'll need to check if the los is blocked somehow and to check this the rules says that the lines used to target that single point can't be blocked by an intervening terrain or unit. Once again looking at the diagram, the lines aren't blocked.
So the point is to try to understand if Hervé fought:
- This shot can't be made because of the Area inside of the LOS has an unit, hence it also constitute a blockage
- This shot can be made, because you still have a considerable area of the target between the lines and the unit (you'll notice that on other valid shooting situations you can end-up with a lot less area) as this example:
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If the LI is within 1UD of the WWg Art. then surely the prohibition on P59 must apply, regardless of the fact that the lines drawn from both corners of the WWg base are able to intersect the target enemy base. But I would be very interested in hearing an 'official' view Orlando 
NB: my point about the WWg base and shooting is that the WWg has the option to choose which of 2 enemy bases it shoots at that are directly in front of it and at the same distance away, as the WWg in effect covers 2 enemy bases with its own frontage (if that makes sense). If the WWg Art can draw a line from each of its base edge corners to 1 of these units, but the other is blocked by friendly LI can it still shoot at the enemy unit it can draw the lines of fire to? 
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 10:17 am Sujet du message: |
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| daveallen a écrit: | The purpose of drawing the lines from the shooter is to decide whether the shooter has line of sight to shoot past an obstacle, not over it. As in Orlando's diagram. Now take a look at this diagram:
Here the friendly LI unit has been moved so it is near to and in front of the Bowmen unit, but facing up the page. You can now draw two lines from the corners of the Bowmen unit to a single point on the Pike unit's base.
Are the Bowmen shooting overhead?
[rhetorical question - of course they are]
Are the Bowmen allowed to shoot the Pike?
[another rhetorical question - no, they can't shoot overhead)
Final question: Has this situation ever occurred in a game?
Dave |
Unless the Bowmen or their target are on a hill they cannot shoot over the LI anyway Dave.
And again as they are within 1UD of the shooter, regardless of their orientation or the 'lines of fire' the Bowmen still cannot shoot over them - even if they were on a hill (first bullet SHOOTING OVERHEAD page 59).
But again, even if they were an Artillery unit, the prohibition in the second bullet SHOOTING OVERHEAD page 59 surely stands, as the LI are under 1UD from the shooter. The challenge IMHO is where you have 1 enemy blocked by friendly LI but it is possible to shoot at another that is not blocked (and both lines of fire from the base corners of the WWg do not pass through the friendly LI. Does the 2nd bullet on P.59 still stand?
The real challenge with WWgs is their being based on double bases. It creates all sorts of issues and anomolies within the rules. I understand why it is done, and from a basing and esthetics perspective agree with it totally, but it does complicate things no end 
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 758
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 1:34 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | Unless the Bowmen or their target are on a hill they cannot shoot over the LI anyway Dave.
And again as they are within 1UD of the shooter, regardless of their orientation or the 'lines of fire' the Bowmen still cannot shoot over them - even if they were on a hill (first bullet SHOOTING OVERHEAD page 59).
But again, even if they were an Artillery unit, the prohibition in the second bullet SHOOTING OVERHEAD page 59 surely stands, as the LI are under 1UD from the shooter. The challenge IMHO is where you have 1 enemy blocked by friendly LI but it is possible to shoot at another that is not blocked (and both lines of fire from the base corners of the WWg do not pass through the friendly LI. Does the 2nd bullet on P.59 still stand?
The real challenge with WWgs is their being based on double bases. It creates all sorts of issues and anomolies within the rules. I understand why it is done, and from a basing and esthetics perspective agree with it totally, but it does complicate things no end |
1) The point was that this diagram is functionally identical with the diagram for the WWg. So as to make it obvious that the WWg Art cannot shoot over the LI. Furthermore, even a WWg with bows, etc cannot shoot over the LI.
2) There is no need to invoke shooting from higher ground as that is an entirely different case. But since you do - if the Bowmen (or the WWg) were on higher ground than the LI then they could shoot because the restriction for Artillery on the level doesn't apply.
2a) If the Pike are on higher ground and the Bowmen/WWg and LI are on the level then they cannot shoot overhead because the first bp on page 59 only allows overhead shooting from higher ground, not to it.
3) Re the first challenge - as long as the lines of sight do not pass through or around friendly LI within 1UD of the WWG base edge, YES.
4) re the final challenge - the diagram was intended to show that the double length base of the WWg doesn't create an anomaly because exactly the same situation can occur with a single base width.
Incidentally, part of the problem might arise from thinking about lines of sight as lines of fire. The shooting comes from the entire base edge, not just the corners. See Page 57 Shooting zone and range, 1st line: "A unit shoots from its front edge (except..."
Simples
As ever, don't trust me. No matter how convinced (convincing?) I am, it's the DT that give definitive rulings.
Dave
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 4:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi Dave
a). I agree that LoS is different from LoF - however as a WWg has a wider base it is possible to have 2 enemy target units side-by-side and at the same range from the WWg, but to have one of them obscured from shooting by a friendly LI in front of it which is closer to the enemy unit than 1UD. However, the WWg could still draw two Lines-of-Sight from both its corners to the other 'target' unit. Allowing it to still shoot - whether it is shooting with artillery or bow or crossbow etc.
If the friendly LI blocks the WWg's LoS that would seem to suggest that the WWg is prohibited from shooting over it at any enemy units.
So we are agreed .... I think 
b). in your point about shooting from higher ground the over 1UD rule still applies - any intervening units that are under 1UD from the shooter or closer than 1UD to the target will prohibit shooting overhead - Page 59 states that clearly - so the LoS is irrelevant.
But the bit about shooting over an intervening friendly unit at an enemy higher up on a hill not being allowed was new to me. I wonder if that is the intention of the rule, as that would seem slightly odd - allowing it one way and not the other.
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Orlando Almeida
Centurion
Inscrit le: 10 Sep 2016
Messages: 458
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 8:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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[quote="daveallen"] | Mark G Fry a écrit: |
1) The point was that this diagram is functionally identical with the diagram for the WWg. So as to make it obvious that the WWg Art cannot shoot over the LI. Furthermore, even a WWg with bows, etc cannot shoot over the LI.
Dave |
Since WWg aren't so common to use and I end-up umpair a lote of times. I decided to play often with them to get a grip on the specifics. In dead I catch this situation and started to think if this was something meant for the WWgs or not.
I didn't realized that you could get this with a simple LMI base, of course the decision lies on the DT, but I agree with you, don't make sense with LMI, so shouldn't be used on WWgs.
Well taken, thanks  |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 758
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Mer Jan 08, 2025 10:56 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | Hi Dave
a). I agree that LoS is different from LoF - however as a WWg has a wider base it is possible to have 2 enemy target units side-by-side and at the same range from the WWg, but to have one of them obscured from shooting by a friendly LI in front of it which is closer to the enemy unit than 1UD. However, the WWg could still draw two Lines-of-Sight from both its corners to the other 'target' unit. Allowing it to still shoot - whether it is shooting with artillery or bow or crossbow etc.
If the friendly LI blocks the WWg's LoS that would seem to suggest that the WWg is prohibited from shooting over it at any enemy units.
So we are agreed .... I think
b). in your point about shooting from higher ground the over 1UD rule still applies - any intervening units that are under 1UD from the shooter or closer than 1UD to the target will prohibit shooting overhead - Page 59 states that clearly - so the LoS is irrelevant.
But the bit about shooting over an intervening friendly unit at an enemy higher up on a hill not being allowed was new to me. I wonder if that is the intention of the rule, as that would seem slightly odd - allowing it one way and not the other.
Cheers
Mark |
Hi Mark,
a) We are in agreement. Let's never mention this again.
b) You are half right. The shooter on the hill cannot shoot over a friendly unit within 1UD of the target.
BUT they can shoot over a friendly unit within 1UD of themselves. (and more than 1UD from the target)
Thus it is possible to have two Bowmen units in a column on a hill shoot at a target more than 1UD from the front unit.
| Citation: | Page 69, Shooting overhead, 1st bp:
Troops entirely situated higher on a hill can shoot over friends that are lower if the target is at least 1UD from these friendly units |
No mention of them having to be 1UD away from the shooter.
That said, I've tried to imagine a way I could exploit this rule on the table and I simply can't*. So let's not mention this one either. 
Dave
* Not true, I actually have more cunning plans than a fox who has just graduated from the university of cunning
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Jeu Jan 09, 2025 10:27 am Sujet du message: |
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Hi Dave
There is a way to cunningly exploit this on the table, but I'd suggest we don't go there with that.
I had also thought about the 1UD to the side aspect around shooting, and it would allow the WWg ART to shift its shooting slightly to one side to avoid the LI in front of it, but that seems without doubt in the rules.
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Jeu Jan 09, 2025 10:44 am Sujet du message: |
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[quote="Orlando Almeida"] | daveallen a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: |
1) The point was that this diagram is functionally identical with the diagram for the WWg. So as to make it obvious that the WWg Art cannot shoot over the LI. Furthermore, even a WWg with bows, etc cannot shoot over the LI.
Dave |
Since WWg aren't so common to use and I end-up umpair a lote of times. I decided to play often with them to get a grip on the specifics. In dead I catch this situation and started to think if this was something meant for the WWgs or not.
I didn't realized that you could get this with a simple LMI base, of course the decision lies on the DT, but I agree with you, don't make sense with LMI, so shouldn't be used on WWgs.
Well taken, thanks |
I am working on a sheet of WWg specific rules that I have extracted from the main rules set. Once I have this finished I'll see if I can get it published here for everybody.
But as Dave points out, as the WWg ART can shoot up to 1UD to the side it might be able to shoot past the LI, if the two Lines of Sight can still touch the enemy unit that would otherwise be screened by the LI - but I don't think that is in doubt within the rules.
There are a number of later Medieval themed competitions coming up this year, and with the changes to Polearms it makes armies such as the Hussites, Hungarians and later Germans a bit more attractive
Cheers
Mark
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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