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Neep
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
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 Posté le: Mer Fév 19, 2025 9:42 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Do remember that an uncontrolled charge gets a -1 and cannot avoid an unfavorable match up. |
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vexillia
Centurion
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 408
Localisation: Nantwich, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Fév 19, 2025 10:05 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Neep a écrit: | | Do remember that an uncontrolled charge gets a -1 and cannot avoid an unfavorable match up. |
A bit of a tangent. It's not relevant to a discussion of uncontrolled charges ending in support.
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Martin Stephenson
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Fév 19, 2025 11:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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| vexillia a écrit: | As the axeman says: "it's weird one". Let's not forget that charges are a "they're over there lads" type of move and in ADLG do not involve complex manoeuvres en route. An uncontrolled charge should be the same, if not more so.
On that basis, I think the "uncontrolled charge (move) to support using movement rules" argument is a bit "gamey". Having run out of pips, using the movement rules allows impetuous troops a free standard move which could involve complex manoeuvres (when they are charging head long to help their mates ahead of them). The use of the charge rules restricts this somewhat which seems far more appropriate.
I remember a group of very vocal DBM(M) players who put forward similar arguments because they wanted their impetuous troops to be pip free, heat seeking missiles. |
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment and the logic of “uncontrolled charges should be a bit of a blunt instrumentâ€, and that restricting them to “charge†constraints does have internal logic.
But, there is an alternative thought process and reading that does have a significant degree of coherence and credibility too - “impetuous troops want to fight†- so it’s worth picking apart and asking the question as clearly as possible.Â
All I’m hoping to do here is to tease out and isolate the actual question being asked in the first post in this thread, so it can be clearly answered.Â
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SteveR
Signifer
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 369
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| Posté le: Ven Fév 21, 2025 3:23 am Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: |
I think Lionel has answered this clearly, but even so it is a bit of a weird one:
- A unit making an Uncontrolled Charge always follows the Charge rules to determine how the unit moves across the tabletop, even in some situations where a "commanded" unit would not be allowed to make a "charge" move.
- Unit making an Uncontrolled Charge may sometimes not be able to reach a support position, even when they could reach that position by being commanded to do so.
- This will mean that sometimes Impetuous units which are within "move" distance of a support position, but not within "charge" distance will instead remain in place and will not be required to make an Uncontrolled charge.
Does that sound about right? |
Well it is not how I THOUGHT it was done but I am perfectly willing to accept that I was in error.
However it does raise a situation. The target priority is on page 45. Consider a case where the target is determined by priority 3 - the "nearest" enemy unit among those not in front.
However it cannot reach this nearest unit by a charge move. But it could reach it by a move move. And there is a second unit which is farther away but which can be reached by a charge
It seems I am being told that it then ignores the first target in favor of charging the more distant enemy.
I'll admit that I thought the process was as follows:
1. Determine if an impetuous unit has one or more enemy which can be contacted. (look at the 3rd bullet under "Resolution" on page 45 - that just says "contact") If so
2. Determine the target per the priority on page 45
3. If that target is not in melee charge it
4. Else move by the shortest move to a support position
Seemed to me that the closest enemy should take precedence over one that can only be contacted by a charge move. But if that is not the case oh well. Mostly arises from impetuous cavalry anyway |
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Zoltan
Légat
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 500
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Ven Fév 21, 2025 8:20 am Sujet du message: |
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I really feel a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.
An uncontrolled charge is a charge.
Charges are special movements with some restrictions compared to “non charge†moves.
In a charge move you can slide OR turn with an optional wheel.Â
In a charge move you can not both slide AND turn with an optional wheel.
 A unit making an uncontrolled charge moves towards the nearest available enemy unit it can contact.
If it can’t contact any enemy unit by moving straight ahead OR sliding and moving straight ahead OR turning with an optional wheel and moving straight ahead, it does not move (there is no legal uncontrolled charge available). |
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Rafa Tortosa
Signifer
Inscrit le: 25 Jan 2015
Messages: 302
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 24, 2025 10:09 am Sujet du message: |
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Please,
what is the D.T. conclusion?
Thank you very much.
Rafa |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 24, 2025 10:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Rafa Tortosa a écrit: | Please,
what is the D.T. conclusion?
Thank you very much.
Rafa |
I think Lionel's initial response will not change ..
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Rafa Tortosa
Signifer
Inscrit le: 25 Jan 2015
Messages: 302
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 24, 2025 10:19 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ok
Thank you very much |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 582
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Fév 24, 2025 10:49 pm Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | | Rafa Tortosa a écrit: | Please,
what is the D.T. conclusion?
Thank you very much.
Rafa |
I think Lionel's initial response will not change .. |
But Gavin disagreed, and is he part of the DT too? |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1235
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 1:28 am Sujet du message: |
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| No, I did not disagree. Lionel said that an impetuous unit that is charging (ie the first to make contact) must comply with the charging rules. I added that those units in range to provide support must also move, as described in p46. |
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SteveR
Signifer
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 369
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 3:48 am Sujet du message: |
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This discussion has been very helpful to me.
Take a look at page 46. If I understand what everyone is saying unit D goes to a support position against unit 4 and must do so as a charge move. Because of its position it does so by sliding to the left and bursting through unit L1. So far so good.
However if it started slightly to the right in this situation such that unit 4 is still in front of it but unit 5 is not it would instead remain immobile. Even if it could reach the support position against 4 with a "move' and not a "charge" Unit 4 is in front of it and must be its only target even if it can reach 5 easily.
Since it stays immobile unit E will burst through it and end up in the position indicated.
Correct? |
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Neep
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 4:03 am Sujet du message: |
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| Both the displacements, D and E, into support in the Example on page 46 can be accomplished with a slide and advance, so it tells us nothing about whether they must obey charge restrictions. |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 582
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 4:08 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | | No, I did not disagree. Lionel said that an impetuous unit that is charging (ie the first to make contact) must comply with the charging rules. I added that those units in range to provide support must also move, as described in p46. |
I understood that Lionel’s response was being taken to read that any uncontrolled charge is a Charge, whether to melee or to support, and has the associated manoeuvre limitations. Your response was that it is only a charge if it meets the Charge definition, and that uncontrolled charges to melee or simple support are a move not a charge and do not have the manoeuvree limitations. |
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Zoltan
Légat
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 500
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 4:23 am Sujet du message: |
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Lionel is correct. Ramses, not so much.
There's a distinction between multiple units making a charge and the different roles each charging unit plays on contact/in melee.
Three units charge one enemy: two towards the enemy's front edge and one towards its rear edge.
In the melee:
one unit will be the main unit
one unit will be in simple support
one unit will be in melee support
But all three units made a "charge move" - a move into contact with the intention of engaging in combat. |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 582
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Fév 25, 2025 4:27 am Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | Lionel is correct. Ramses, not so much.
There's a distinction between multiple units making a charge and the different roles each charging unit plays on contact/in melee.
Three units charge one enemy: two towards the enemy's front edge and one towards its rear edge.
In the melee:
one unit will be the main unit
one unit will be in simple support
one unit will be in melee support
But all three units made a "charge move" - a move into contact with the intention of engaging in combat. |
I understand the argument, and await a DT ruling, ideally in an faq or errata. What takes precedence, the definition of a charge ie. only the first unit or group to contact, or the use of the word uncontrolled “chargeâ€, hence the debate.
Nb I was aware of the contradiction, but it has never come up in any of my games, so it is not a common problem. |
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