Art De La Guerre :: Voir le sujet

MarkK
Archer

Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
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Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 9:35 am Sujet du message:
Impact zoomies are incredible.

Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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Localisation: Bristol, UK

Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 11:12 am Sujet du message:

Neep a �crit:

I would assume the attacking unit is the active unit.

Interesting Neep.

Not necessarily, I suspect.

As the Elephant is forced to pursue - it is the active unit. But as it stops without entering the terrain, and therefore is not actually touching/hitting the enemy unit - which is standing inside/on the terrain edge, it must be the other player that initiates the contact in his/her turn.

This can create all sorts of challenges - does the unit in the terrain count as charging (I'd argue yes ... others may differ on that), as if it is charging it might loses certain advantages in the melee.

This whole business of terrain 'edges' is a real rules minefield.
I've always believed (in any set of rules) that a unit must have all or part of its base within a terrain piece to be affected by it. It should therefore be possible for a unit, with its rear edge in a terrain piece but front edge entirely outside the terrain, to fight an enemy outside the terrain but be affected by the terrain itself (so LF are a classic case in point). But the attacking unit as it is outside the terrain is not affected by that terrain.

In this particular instance, our pursuing Elephant stops before entering the terrain, so therefore is not in it and cannot be effected by it.
The unit within the terrain is still in the terrain, even if it pokes its front edge out a fraction to contact the elephant. But how you resolve the combat issues is another issue.
I think the DBM/A/HoTT way is that the attacker in the open is penalized - which, if that is the case, seems unduly harsh (IMHO)

But that's just me being logical Shocked

_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

MarkK
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Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
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Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 12:51 pm Sujet du message:

Mark G Fry a �crit:

Neep a �crit:

I would assume the attacking unit is the active unit.

I think the DBM/A/HoTT way is that the attacker in the open is penalized - which, if that is the case, seems unduly harsh (IMHO)

But that's just me being logical Shocked

I can see the logic, you'd have to go into the terrain to attack the other, even if this isn't represented by the model being in it. If it was the other way around and you'd be pretty miffed. Wargame rules aren't supposed to be logical, which is something I have to keep reminding myself of when I fall foul of gotcha moments when find my opponent is able to do the impossible after I've already convinced myself otherwise.

Mike Bennett
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK

Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 1:22 pm Sujet du message:
If the enemy is lining the terrain edge (ie touching it) and the elephant stops when it reaches the terrain (ie also touching it) then why are they not in contact if they are parallel? Then as the elephant moved to that position it would be the attacker. Nb it is unikely that there will be a new enemy that close as he would be in the danger zone of his buddy.

Neep
Prétorien

Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 2:00 pm Sujet du message:

Mark G Fry a �crit:

Neep a �crit:

I would assume the attacking unit is the active unit.

Interesting Neep.

Not necessarily, I suspect.

...

Upon further consideration, the rule reads:

L'Art de la Guerre rule book as it is a �crit:

If a unit attacks an enemy situated just at the edge of a terrain piece, the attacking unit is considered to partially enter the enemy's terrain piece. The most penalizing terrain modifier is then applied to that unit, until the end of the combat.

The second sentence negates my assumption that the calculation would alternate along with the active player.
The first sentence indicates one side is the attacker and the other is not.[1]
Thus it looks like the side making the first contact is the attacker.[2][3]

1 - It's not much of a burden to apply the rule to fighting rather than attacking. Except when forced to stop by terrain (ex. evasion or impetuous charge continuation), a unit "guarding the exit" can always wait a millimeter off the edge, forcing any attack from the terrain piece to suffer penalties while it does not. Ok, camels at the edge of a Dunes/Plantation transition get interesting! Wink

)
2 - Complications arise when a unit, having defeated the enemy main unit, turns to engage enemy melee support. Consider that the unit may have moved into the flanked position initially.
3 - Can Ch, Ct, or bladed WWg attack units situated at the edge of Difficult terrain?

Derni�re �dition par Neep le Mar Avr 29, 2025 7:36 pm; �dit� 7 fois

Mark G Fry
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Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 2:14 pm Sujet du message:

Mike Bennett a �crit:

If the enemy is lining the terrain edge (ie touching it) and the elephant stops when it reaches the terrain (ie also touching it) then why are they not in contact if they are parallel?

Then as the elephant moved to that position it would be the attacker.

Nb it is unikely that there will be a new enemy that close as he would be in the danger zone of his buddy.

I wouldn't disagree with you Mike (about them being parallel) except for an insistence from others that the elephant is therefore fighting in the terrain.

Logically (& that is always a dangerous word to apply to rules mechanisms) it stops 'before' it enters the terrain, so it is cannot be in the terrain and cannot therefore be negatively effected by it. In the same way that stopping at a table edge means you are on the table, not off it.
To me, it is an oddity that the elephant stops before hitting the terrain, but ends up disadvantaged fighting in it just because its opposing enemy unit is within the terrain.
I can see the modern example of a unit storming a building where the defenders have lined the walls, the defenders get an advantage, but the attackers are not disadvantaged.

It would all be simpler if Impetuous units that couldn't make a full 1UD Pursuit move (unless it puts them in contact with an enemy unit thst is not in terrain that disadvantage them) made no move at all. But maybe that was the intention all along Very Happy

_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

MarkK
Archer

Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
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Post� le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 6:41 pm Sujet du message:

[quote="Mark G Fry"]

Mike Bennett a �crit:

To me, it is an oddity that the elephant stops before hitting the terrain

The oddity to me is that it's so full of blood lust after trampling you to your death it goes on a rampage and pursuits forward only to suddenly regain it's senses when it hits terrain it is penalised in....I mean how does it know?

Mark G Fry
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 8:25 am Sujet du message:

[quote="MarkK"]

Mark G Fry a �crit:

Mike Bennett a �crit:

To me, it is an oddity that the elephant stops before hitting the terrain

The oddity to me is that it's so full of blood lust after trampling you to your death it goes on a rampage and pursuits forward only to suddenly regain it's senses when it hits terrain it is penalised in....I mean how does it know?

True - but then why doesn't it pursue off-table in a similar instance (for example) - as happens with evading units?

The issue is really whether it should be forced to make part of a Pursuit move (& stop) or no Pursuit move at all. I personally think the latter is the best solution.
But this whole business of terrain edge combats is fraught with complexity and it does happen quite often in games, as players will (quite rightly) want their bad-going units to line the edge of a terrain piece.
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

MarkK
Archer

Inscrit le: 07 Nov 2024
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 10:10 am Sujet du message:

[quote="Mark G Fry"]

MarkK a �crit:

Mark G Fry a �crit:

Mike Bennett a �crit:

To me, it is an oddity that the elephant stops before hitting the terrain

The oddity to me is that it's so full of blood lust after trampling you to your death it goes on a rampage and pursuits forward only to suddenly regain it's senses when it hits terrain it is penalised in....I mean how does it know?

True - but then why doesn't it pursue off-table in a similar instance (for example) - as happens with evading units?

The issue is really whether it should be forced to make part of a Pursuit move (& stop) or no Pursuit move at all. I personally think the latter is the best solution.
But this whole business of terrain edge combats is fraught with complexity and it does happen quite often in games, as players will (quite rightly) want their bad-going units to line the edge of a terrain piece.

The reality is it should. These inconsistencies lead to 'gamey' play in my book and there are enough of them already (don't get me started on being zoc'd) So if the dialogue went along the lines of 'Elephants should pursue because they are wild beast and know no better.' Ah but what if they hit terrain they are penalised in or a board edge? Good point, in which case they regain their senses and stop.' It's a fudge, you are creating a caveat to get you out of a hole you have created and it should be one or the other. To be honest I see being able to lure them in as a sound tactic using their erratic behaviour against them, they are far too powerful in the game, far more than they were in reality (yes it's a game I know and not meant to be realistic) but it does get tiring facing elephants all the time and the only gameplan being to trample you as they are too good.

So yes, you are correct just have np pursuit at all in that case.

Hazelbark
Magister Militum

Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 12:21 pm Sujet du message:

Mark G Fry a �crit:

I've always believed (in any set of rules) that a unit must have all or part of its base within a terrain piece to be affected by it. It should therefore be possible for a unit, with its rear edge in a terrain piece but front edge entirely outside the terrain, to fight an enemy outside the terrain but be affected by the terrain itself (so LF are a classic case in point). But the attacking unit as it is outside the terrain is not affected by that terrain.

This is the rule in ADLG you will be happy to know.

A HI in rough moves 1/2 out to attack a KN. The KN is unaffected the HI is effected.

Hazelbark
Magister Militum

Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 12:27 pm Sujet du message:

MarkK a �crit:

it does get tiring facing elephants all the time and the only gameplan being to trample you as they are too good.

Or you could just kill them and watch the strike force of the enemy end.

An elephant is terrific at impact versus mounted.
Its pretty good in melee versus mounted.
Its good-ish like almost all other knightly mounted against foot at impact.
Its like a plain HI in melee vs foot.

Elephants do not like Missile supported foot, HI of most kinds especially Pike, maneuver, shooting.

If you plan is to let them hit you, then infantry with missile support is perfect.

A lot of people with elephants get more out of them because their opponents fixate on them IMO

MarkK
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 1:46 pm Sujet du message:

I've found all those things to be exactly right in theory, but not in practice. I've munched through plenty of HI and also had light bow supported Elephants shoot me to pieces whilst I have been unable to lay a finger on them. They also maneuver quite fine with the only real restriction being they have to occasionally spend 2 pips - which isn't that much of a drag, all in all a very good priced troop that gives excellent value for money unlike others. They are popular for a reason.

Andy Fyfe
Auxiliaire

Inscrit le: 14 F�v 2024
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 3:17 pm Sujet du message:

MarkK a �crit:

I've found all those things to be exactly right in theory, but not in practice. I've munched through plenty of HI and also had light bow supported Elephants shoot me to pieces whilst I have been unable to lay a finger on them. They also maneuver quite fine with the only real restriction being they have to occasionally spend 2 pips - which isn't that much of a drag, all in all a very good priced troop that gives excellent value for money unlike others. They are popular for a reason.

At 13 points they are very pricey for a unit which cannot be rallied and has a protection value of zero.

They also give the enemy a reason to dismount which can change the fight completely.

I have found that once they have a hit they are pretty much done for.

Andy

MarkK
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 4:35 pm Sujet du message:

Andy Fyfe a �crit:

MarkK a �crit:

I've found all those things to be exactly right in theory, but not in practice. I've munched through plenty of HI and also had light bow supported Elephants shoot me to pieces whilst I have been unable to lay a finger on them. They also maneuver quite fine with the only real restriction being they have to occasionally spend 2 pips - which isn't that much of a drag, all in all a very good priced troop that gives excellent value for money unlike others. They are popular for a reason.

At 13 points they are very pricey for a unit which cannot be rallied and has a protection value of zero.

They also give the enemy a reason to dismount which can change the fight completely.

I have found that once they have a hit they are pretty much done for.

Andy

As are most things, you may get the odd turning into a flank which they can also do - but nothing really goes wizzing around mopping up the battle field. ADGL is as much about having the best troops more than anything and the main ones are elephants, cats, pike, armoured impact for starters (certainly in the Classical period) and if you haven't got them you'll struggle to win and you often face 2 if not three from that list and for good reason.

Hazelbark
Magister Militum

Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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Post� le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 6:28 pm Sujet du message:

MarkK a �crit:

ADGL is as much about having the best troops more than anything and the main ones are elephants, cats, pike, armoured impact for starters (certainly in the Classical period) and if you haven't got them you'll struggle to win and you often face 2 if not three from that list and for good reason.

If you are in the classical period and not facing Phalanx, Cataphracts, legionnaires and Elephants in some frequency then what game would you be playing? (Mind you Ostrogoths and Germans have both been known to beat these.) I consider that a feature.

Oh right DBM 3.1 Later Pre-Islamic Arab, with camels, Bow and endless blade. Not that i was above running that list mind you.

Caesar's Triumvir (Or Scipio Africanus) list would gladly face classical Indians with 6 Elephants. The legions are much more likely to wrap the elephants than vice-versa.