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DieselDave
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 16 Fév 2021
Messages: 107
Localisation: Creuse , Central France
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 Posté le: Sam Juil 03, 2021 4:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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Surely the rule represents the artillery firing from within the front ranks of the unit rather than actually over it?
As such I would have though it can't fire 'over' the unit if it is in combat as the artillery would have retired to the rear. |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 354
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| Posté le: Dim Juil 04, 2021 2:52 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | There is a debate going on about shooting over a unit actually in combat, which does not seem to be forbidden by the rules either. |
Doesn't p. 57 "Line of Sight" prohibit this?
A unit cannot shoot at an enemy unit it cannot see, such as:
- Units hidden behind terrarin, or behind a friendly or enemy unit.
Yes you can shoot over your friend, but your friend is in combat with an enemy you can't shoot over... |
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Mike Bennett
Légat
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 600
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Dim Juil 04, 2021 4:08 pm Sujet du message: |
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| ethan a écrit: |
Doesn't p. 57 "Line of Sight" prohibit this?
A unit cannot shoot at an enemy unit it cannot see, such as:
- Units hidden behind terrarin, or behind a friendly or enemy unit.
Yes you can shoot over your friend, but your friend is in combat with an enemy you can't shoot over... |
But your friend might be in combat with enemy light infantry in bad terrain, and you can shoot over both elements normally. Nb a bit of an edge case I agree |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4875
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Dim Juil 04, 2021 5:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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| ethan a écrit: | | Mike Bennett a écrit: | | There is a debate going on about shooting over a unit actually in combat, which does not seem to be forbidden by the rules either. |
Doesn't p. 57 "Line of Sight" prohibit this?
A unit cannot shoot at an enemy unit it cannot see, such as:
- Units hidden behind terrarin, or behind a friendly or enemy unit.
Yes you can shoot over your friend, but your friend is in combat with an enemy you can't shoot over... |
It's not the good way: when integrated artillery shoot over legions, the have not line of sight...
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Dickstick
Tribun
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 737
Localisation: West Bromwich
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| Posté le: Lun Aoû 09, 2021 3:08 pm Sujet du message: |
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Will this get sorted soon?
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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KevinD
Tribun
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 711
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Sam Sep 18, 2021 1:41 am Sujet du message: |
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| Dickstick a écrit: | | Will this get sorted soon? |
The Sept 2021 Errata solves this. They can shoot over friends they can normally shoot over that are in Simple Support but not those in Melee or Melee Support. |
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 18, 2022 10:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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If artillery wants to fire over friendly light troops, it must be 1 UD away from the artillery and the target. However, the integrated artillery is automatically 1 UD behind its front unit. Is it allowed to place 1 Li in front of this front unit,
which then gives the artillery a shooting support?
Or does the Li has to be 1 UD away from the front unit?
...because the shooting range is measured from the front unit? |
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KevinD
Tribun
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 711
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 18, 2022 10:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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| I take this to mean everything shooting related is measured from the unit it is integrated with, thus they have to be 1 UD from the front unit. |
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ALEXANDER
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 28 Déc 2021
Messages: 171
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| Posté le: Dim Déc 18, 2022 10:58 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ok
..and it is true ...
that light artillery can move up to 3 UD outside tactical distance of enemy?
....if it is alined behind the unit it is integrated with?
Romans can integrade their light artillery to auxillaries.
Does this include Auxiliaries Sagitarii (Bowmen)?
Can those Artilleries (integrated to Bowmen) move through rough terrain with speed 3UD too? |
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KevinD
Tribun
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 711
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Lun Déc 19, 2022 3:11 am Sujet du message: |
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| ALEXANDER a écrit: | Ok
..and it is true ...
1. that light artillery can move up to 3 UD outside tactical distance of enemy?
....if it is alined behind the unit it is integrated with?
2. Romans can integrade their light artillery to auxillaries.
3. Does this include Auxiliaries Sagitarii (Bowmen)?
4. Can those Artilleries (integrated to Bowmen) move through rough terrain with speed 3UD too? |
[Edited above to add numbering of questions - KD]
1. No, Integrated Light Artillery are not HI and don’t move like them.
2 & 3.
A) LIR - Not all auxilia, only Auxilia Palatina, not Sagitarii or Pseudocomitatenses.
B) EIR/MIR - I suspect not but would like to hear the author’s intent here. I think he meant integrated with Auxiliaries full stop only (perhaps by analogy with LIR) , not Auxiliaries Sagittarii, but as I said I am uncertain about this point. Are you aware of any historical record of them being used this way?
4. It doesn’t matter who they are integrated with, they move like mobile artillery: 2 UD in Open, 1 UD in Rough and 0 in Difficult. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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| Posté le: Mer Déc 28, 2022 10:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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What about Dick's other question? Can you shoot at integrated artillery rather than its paired unit despite the LOS and Target Priority rules?
(In reality, I believe the mathematics of area fire means the artillery and integrated unit should both take all the hits. But it's only a game...) |
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Muz22
Frondeur
Inscrit le: 31 Mar 2023
Messages: 3
Localisation: Australia
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| Posté le: Lun Nov 03, 2025 2:59 am Sujet du message: |
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In the para for Shooting Overhead on p59 it says integrated light artillery can shoot with no restriction ....
Does this relieve the integrated artillery from the Shooting Priorities?
Or does the integrated artillery have to continue to shoot at the same nearest target directly in front (etc, etc)?
I am assuming that the shooting priorities continue to apply, which may be why you don't see integrated artillery very much. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1686
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Lun Nov 03, 2025 8:04 am Sujet du message: |
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| Muz22 a écrit: | In the para for Shooting Overhead on p59 it says integrated light artillery can shoot with no restriction ....
Does this relieve the integrated artillery from the Shooting Priorities?
Or does the integrated artillery have to continue to shoot at the same nearest target directly in front (etc, etc)?
I am assuming that the shooting priorities continue to apply, which may be why you don't see integrated artillery very much. |
Yes they still have standard target priority.
They can move and shoot, so are in theory not that different to bowmen in their ability to wheel and aim at targets of choice - and being able to ignore event skirmishers (as artillery) also helps, but in reality an enemy can usually avoid presenting the with juicy targetsÂ
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1710
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| Posté le: Lun Nov 03, 2025 3:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Muz22 a écrit: |
Or does the integrated artillery have to continue to shoot at the same nearest target directly in front (etc, etc)?
I am assuming that the shooting priorities continue to apply, which may be why you don't see integrated artillery very much. |
As Tim said, normal apply.
There are only a couple armies that have them.
When people experiment with them they too often think of them as a 19th century battery tearing gashes in enemy ranks. Not so much.
They can provide a valuable edge.
Often they will inflict a hit on an enemy closing fast. Two hits can happen but rarer. This is mostly a 50/50 proposition until you have support fire or enemy is elite.
So the enemy comes in -1 off of factors.
Often you see them behind a full fat Roman included general.
I often find my german HI impetuous hitting at a 0 to 3 then. Elites on both sides. can be rough.
Cataphracts hit the general included legion (1+1-1) to (1+1+missile support)
So it makes a big difference but only at one point.
Elephants obviously get terrified of them.
The challenge for the LART user is you have now invested a LOT of points on a narrow frontage.
Mostly I find 1 helpful, 2 not so much.
There is also the Ming battery.
4 HI polearm with 4 LART behind. (rafa likes the HI as Mediocre). THere is another that does think with Medicore pike.
That puts out a tremendous fire volume on a narrow frontage. Then whatever closes is banged up and has to struggle through the infantry. But if it is flanked before it gets its front engaged well it is pretty quickly a dog's breakfast. |
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