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LI contacted by evading enemy CV
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 1:30 am    Sujet du message: LI contacted by evading enemy CV Répondre en citant
A unit of Heavy Cavalry is charged and chooses to evade.
During the Evade move it contacts an enemy LI, which is not considered an obstacle. What happens?
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 7:20 am    Sujet du message: Re: LI contacted by evading enemy CV Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
A unit of Heavy Cavalry is charged and chooses to evade.
During the Evade move it contacts an enemy LI, which is not considered an obstacle. What happens?


Question answered:

Blocking evaders (http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5428)

Embarassed

Dave
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 5:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So apologies for repeating a question raised fairly recently, though the FAQ does not cover this question and that thread does not seem to provide a definitive answer either.
There are two views expressed
  1. The evading CV stop to kill off the enemy LI, and are themselves potentially caught in the rear by the original enemy charge.
  2. The LI also performs an evade, being destroyed if re-contacted by the evading CV.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 6:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't think there is any provision for evaders to contact enemy as they evade.

I'm pretty sure the last thread covered this:

Whilst LF within 1 UD are not an obstacle to evading heavier troops, once they move beyond that initial 1 UD (as a result of the LF fleeing) they become an obstacle that the evaders need to avoid - by wheeling or sliding.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 9:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And that is the point; while all other troops are an obstacle (which can stop a unit from evading or require evaders to avoid them), LI specifically are not an obstacle. Consequently there is no need for the evading CV to avoid them - leading to the question over what happens under these circumstances.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 17, 2017 11:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would hope that in the spirit of the rules, the light infantry are either destroyed or interpenetrated by the evading cav.

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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 12:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
And that is the point; while all other troops are an obstacle (which can stop a unit from evading or require evaders to avoid them), LI specifically are not an obstacle. Consequently there is no need for the evading CV to avoid them - leading to the question over what happens under these circumstances.


My apologies for being obtuse. You are right the rules say LI are not an obstacle to heavy troops.

However, there is no provision in the evade rule (or elsewhere) for evaders to contact enemy in the evade.

Nor is there any explicit provision to allow a second evade if the first evade doesn't get you far enough away from the enemy.

So we have an anomaly.

There are three possible solutions.

    1 Allow the evading heavies to contact the LI and destroy them

    2 Make the evading heavies manoeuvre to avoid the LI

    3 Allow the LI to make a second evade


I think 1 is unacceptable because the rules do not describe any circumstances in which evaders are permitted to contact enemy.

Number 2 seems to negate the rule that LI are not an obstacle to evading heavies. So treating them as an obstacle is out.

Which leaves 3. There is provision in the rules for a unit to make multiple evades, although from consecutive charges. So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to allow the LI to evade a second time, especially as this is an evade from an evader not a charger.

On balance, option 3 does least bending of the rules and so gets my vote.

Which brings us to the thorny question of what happens if the LI can't evade because their route is blocked by an obstacle within 1 UD?

Sticking my neck out I'd say that option 2 should apply in this case on the grounds that the heavies might have had to manoeuvre to avoid what was blocking the LI anyway.

Dave
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 12:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Would the evading cav be more likely to maneuver to avoid the light infantry in their path, or ride straight through/over them?

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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 8:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Situation is relatively clear for me:
1/initial evading capability evaluation : the CV change its orientation and, as it is a LI, it is not an obstacle so the evade move is possible (p38 para 5, 1st bullet).

2/ the CV perform its evading move and meet the LI, in open terrain. The LI must then make an evade move (P39, last bullet )
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 10:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks, though I am not sure it is so clearcut.
As Dave says, the LI movement cannot be an 'Evade' in the formal sense since the CV are not specifically charging them. It also goes against the note on P52, amplified in the FAQ, that requires the CV to stop and destroy the LI if the contact is in the open.

In my view, the FAQ should be revised to show that this is more an 'Avoid' in the sense of LI being moved away from an illegal contact with heavier troops in the open. However, I also think the LI should be destroyed automatically in the very unlikely event that they cannot be moved out of the way as the heavier enemy burst through them.

But, this also raises the question of what happens if the contact is in terrain. Do the LI constitute an 'obstacle' at this point, that the heavier evaders must avoid, or is there another wrinkle here as well?
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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 11:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Thanks, though I am not sure it is so clearcut.
As Dave says, the LI movement cannot be an 'Evade' in the formal sense since the CV are not specifically charging them. It also goes against the note on P52, amplified in the FAQ, that requires the CV to stop and destroy the LI if the contact is in the open.
In my view, the FAQ should be revised to show that this is more an 'Avoid' in the sense of LI being moved away from an illegal contact with heavier troops in the open. However, I also think the LI should be destroyed automatically in the very unlikely event that they cannot be moved out of the way as the heavier enemy burst through them.


A) p 39 (translation from french book) If an ennemy LI is in situation to be penetrated by an evading friendly unit, it must evade . It is clearly specified that the CV evading move, in open terrain, pursue through an ennemy LI who itself evade. There is no contact between both.
do not forget that an evading unit is not performing its own phase, so unable to create any legal contact.(p36 1st para).
B) In the FAQ, we are in the cases of :
1/a contact following a charge move by an heavy unit againts a LI, in open terrain and unable to evade, or catch after a too short evade move
2/ a contact made after a rout+pursuit move without any evade move permitted

I think it is the sense of the p39 last para with an LI evade move induced by an heavy unit evade move in open terrain to avoid any illegal contact. That may conduct to a second evade move if, in the ace of a CV, the 1st LI evade move is not sufficient to move away from the CV path.

C) Do doubt in any terrain, a LI is an obstacle, cannot be contacted by an ennemy evading unit and must be bypass.
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footslogger
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 12:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yeah, I think it needs clarification in the FAQ.

The question would be:
If LI evading from evading non-LI get caught during their own evade, what happens?
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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 2:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
footslogger a écrit:
Yeah, I think it needs clarification in the FAQ.

The question would be:
If LI evading from evading non-LI get caught during their own evade, what happens?

As it can not be a valid contact and the evading unit is an heavy unit ,except elephant or scythed chariots and in open terrain. the LI evade again.
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footslogger
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 18, 2017 5:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Commodore a écrit:
footslogger a écrit:
Yeah, I think it needs clarification in the FAQ.

The question would be:
If LI evading from evading non-LI get caught during their own evade, what happens?

As it can not be a valid contact and the evading unit is an heavy unit ,except elephant or scythed chariots and in open terrain. the LI evade again.


I suspect this is correct, but it needs to be in the FAQ.
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