Art De La Guerre

[daveallen]

This came up in a game last night, but we were too much in drink to find it in the rules.

C


__B

C is a unit of cavalry, B is unit of bowmen.

B is 4UD from C and offset by 1.5UD. They are both aligned directly north/south.

1) Can C charge B by sliding?

Even though it couldn't reach B without sliding?

2) What if the distance from C to B was greater than 4UD, but by sliding C would be able to reach B?

Dave
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[fdunadan]

page 28 of the Book;
slide, second item; " during a charge, the extra distance may not permit to contact a unit that was out of reach before the slide" ( roughly translated from French version )

So basically, the slide cannot be used to contact a unit that you can't contact without the slide. In this case, if the outer most corner of C is farther than 4 UD from B, then C cannot contact B.

You can see easily if you can contact: use Wheel to see if your unit can reach the ennemy. If it's not the case, the charge is not valid.

Slide must also be done at the beginning of the charge (page 36) and then you must charge straight forward.
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[Ramses II]

And from the FAQ:-
Charge and sliding
Q : How to check if a target is in charge range ?
R : You must satisfy both of the following conditions :
- The distance between the two nearest points of the two units is less than or equal to the movement capacity of the charging unit.
- The charging unit is able to perform a legal move to contact the target unit. If the move includes a wheel, a quarter-turn or a half-turn the movement capacity is reduced accordingly. If the move includes a slide, the movement capacity is not reduced.

[daveallen]

Is that two different answers?

So the FAQs say that case 1) above it's possible for C to charge, but not in case 2).

Thanks guys,

Dave
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[Zoltan]

To count as a charge C only has to be able to contact B by the minutest amount. So is the starting distance between the nearest points of B and C 4UD (C's charge move distance) or less as the crow flies?

If yes, then the charge can be made with a slide first.
If no, then the charge can not be made (and the slide is irrelevant).

[Hazelbark]

[daveallen]

[fdunadan]

No contradiction here: English is not my mother langage so a lot is lost in translation...

When you declare a charge on an ennemy unit, you must
- be at legal distance (4 UD for your Cav)
-be able to reach the unit legally (not making two 1/4 or 1/2 turn to pass by an obstacle, not passing in ZoC, ...)

The slide is only a way of simplification for the moves. Exemple: & try to contact A, wich is behind B

&__B
_____A

in this case, & can slide to the right and charge 4 UD to A. The distance is less than the movement of & and it can be done with Wheel.
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[Ramses II]

Fdunadan, there is a small difference between your understanding and the FAQ as it is written. Consider the following diagram

TTTT


___x___ncccf



The original discussion revolved around the difference between two definitions

• a measurement x-T, from a line extending from the front edge of the charging unit to the target unit.
  This was how the English version of the rules could be interpreted and effectively meant the charging unit could slightly exceed it's movement allowance
  
  
• a measurement f-T between the further corner of the charging unit and the nearest corner of the target. This meant requiring the charger to take a wheel into account before the charge. This is your understanding, and may reflect other rule sets.

What the FAQ states is that the measurement is now n-T, between the nearest corner of the charging unit and the target. This is a compromise between the two positions, so the charger does not have to include a wheel (losing a small amount of their charge), although the further apart the units are the closer the target has to be to the charger's base line (so the movement 'excess' is reduced to a minimum).

It is also the most practical measurement being between two physical points rather than some hypothetical point albeit a few mm distant.

[daveallen]

I'm bumping this thread because I think the amendments changed the meaning of the rule.

In the diagram the red unit is cavalry, the blue is enemy archers and the pink represents the position red would move to in order to charge (or not).



So Page 28 Slide 2nd b.p.

[Dickstick]

If you could include the slide as part of the charge reach then then you increase the charge reach/range.
P28 reads this cannot be so
FAQ reads all manoeuvers reduce the charge reach, but slides dodge (side pun for the french) this reduction. Even though one maybe wanting this to stretch to an increase, this is not said.

So needed to find this point of reference at Slimbridge but Andy would not have it.
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[Hazelbark]

If I understand your diagram.
Red cannot reach blue by a charge move without sliding. i.e. while it is in a straight line 4 UD, the required wheel means it cannot contact.

wait....ah I see where you are getting this now. I must admit I don't have the official amendments in my brain yet.

So for those tracking this is the "official amendments" not the FAQ that are creating this.

Dave, yes it does seem that this is a new way of measuring unless "movement capacity" means other than the straight line you cite.

NEED DT

[plefebvre]

daveallen a écrit:

I'm bumping this thread because I think the amendments changed the meaning of the rule. In the diagram the red unit is cavalry, the blue is enemy archers and the pink represents the position red would move to in order to charge (or not). So Page 28 Slide 2nd b.p. Citation: If a slide is made during a charge, the extra distance must not allow an enemy unit out of range at the beginning of the movement to be reached. See detail on page 36. Page 36 Charge Definition Citation: A unit is in charge range if the following two points are true :  The distance between the 2 closest points of the units is less than or equal to the movement capacity of the charging unit;  The charging unit can perform a move that contacts the target unit o If the move includes a wheel, ¼ turn or ½ turn, its movement capacity is reduced accordingly o If the move includes a slide, its movement capacity is not reduced Italics are the amendments. The question is: Can the red unit slide to charge the blue unit? This will pretty much hinge on the meaning of the phrase: "out of range at the beginning of the movement."

So , the official answer is definitly YES .

This problem was clarified in August 2016 when El Kreator himself gave the exact definition of "charge distance" in the FAQ. Afterwards this clarification has beeen included directly into the rule by the amendments. So there is no more ambiguity. Just read the rule, including all the amendments


The Technical Board
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[daveallen]

Thanks guys,

couldn't find it in the FAQ.
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[plefebvre]