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The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap
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Hazelbark
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Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 02, 2018 8:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I do not believe you can declare a unit to not be supporting.

A unit in a support position cannot be passed through.

This is very clear in my mind.
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Ramses II
Centurion


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 415
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I propose to ask the TB about this as there seems to be some fundemental points here that need to be made very clear.
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Hazelbark
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Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 02, 2018 9:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree there are several people banding around different things.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 11:42 am    Sujet du message: Re: The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
NOTE: This is an argument that started on a thread about Impetuous troops pursuing, but has a more general application so I'm bumping it onto its own thread.

The situation is this:

HIHI

HILIHI
HIHIHI

The red HI have engaged the blue HI with the blue LI and the central blue HI in overlap position.

The question is can the blue LI evade when charged by the unengaged red HI?

One view is:

fdunadan a écrit:
Only one support unit is autorised on each flank of a melee. So you declare the LI as supporting the fight (and the unitI behind is no longuer a support) and so when your LI is charged, he can evade... and the unit behind act as support for the fight...
simple, elegant, and respecting the spirit of the rule.


This is to be a bit too clever with the rules for me.

Surely if a unit is in a position of overlap it is engaged in melee. The fact that the unit actually fighting can only get a single plus per flank regardless of how many units there are on the flank shouldn't mean you can pick and choose which units are in melee.

For instance, could the blue player claim only the HI was supporting the melee? Would this then allow the LI to shoot the red HI it faces?

I await further discussion and hopefully an official clarification either way.

Dave

The fdunadan' point of view is played in France. Interpenetrations rules are clear, ie you can't interpenetrate unit providing support ( and this not means engaged in melee), and this not extended to unit in supporting position.
So, Li provide a support, is not engaged in melee because not in contact by his front; so can evade.
The hi is not providing support and then can been crossed. LI flees.
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babyshark
Archer


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 4:23 pm    Sujet du message: Re: The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:

The fdunadan' point of view is played in France. Interpenetrations rules are clear, ie you can't interpenetrate unit providing support ( and this not means engaged in melee), and this not extended to unit in supporting position.
So, Li provide a support, is not engaged in melee because not in contact by his front; so can evade.
The hi is not providing support and then can been crossed. LI flees.


This is clear to me. To decide otherwise represents a descent into cheese, and leads to non-historical outcomes (e.g. skirmishers being unable to screen heavy troops).

Marc
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AlanCutner
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 5:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Can this issue be solved if only the front unit of those in a supporting position is deemed to be providing support. Would require an official clarification/amendment. But would stop the cheese of a player choosing which element supports and obtaining shooting advantages, and still allow the LI to evade. And looks like it fits how the game is played in France.
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daveallen
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 257
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 6:57 pm    Sujet du message: Re: The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap Répondre en citant
babyshark a écrit:
This is clear to me. To decide otherwise represents a descent into cheese, and leads to non-historical outcomes (e.g. skirmishers being unable to screen heavy troops).

Marc


Historically, skirmishers screened heavy troops did they? Or is that just a game concept we've grown up with? And the Elbows of Death aren't even a bit cheesy?

There's plenty of cheese in the game we just need a definitive ruling on it that takes into account the problems caused by the situation.

a) how the interpenetration works when the unit behind becomes an obstacle because it is now the support.

b) can the player decide which of two units is the support or will there be a ruling that specifies the front unit? And what this means for other situations.*

c) what this means for shooting at and by the units in overlap.

The simplest way out would be a ruling that units that would be contacted flank to flank by a charge should have the option to evade [provided they have the ability, of course]

* Conceptually, I think this presents problems for the rules. To date I've assumed that every unit in a position to contribute to a melee is doing so. In the same way every unit capable of shooting at a target has to shoot at it even if they have no effect, such as the odd numbered light unit or the fifth HC Bow. They can't just choose to shoot at another target because their priority target is overloaded.
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AvogadroTheMole
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 14 Juin 2016
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Localisation: CT, USA
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 8:50 pm    Sujet du message: Re: The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:

Historically, skirmishers screened heavy troops did they? Or is that just a game concept we've grown up with? And the Elbows of Death aren't even a bit cheesy?


Sorry to be a little off topic, but could someone clarify what "the Elbows of Death" are? I feel like I cannot make a judgement on the potential gaminess of the proposed interpretations without knowing that.
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daveallen
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 9:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Sorry, I was going to explain, but then I had to go out.

Imagine a Light Infantry unit on an entirely open plain. Because it can evade an enemy Heavy infantry unit will never be able to catch it.

Unless, that is, another enemy unit can get behind the Light Infantry. All you need is the tiniest sliver of a unit [say an elbow] within 4cm of directly behind the LI and suddenly it can no longer evade and so ends up dying when the HI charge home. Hence Elbow of Death.

It's cheesy, but it's an explicit mechanism in the rules so we all accept it. What we're arguing about is no less cheesy, but because its an emergent property of the rules rather than an explicit mechanism it's more controversial.

Dave
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Zoltan
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 05, 2018 8:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Why did you specify 4cm?
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madaxeman
Centurion


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 05, 2018 9:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
Why did you specify 4cm?


4cm = 1UD in 15mm scale. 2nd bullet point in "Troops that can evade" on p37
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Hazelbark
Légat


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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 05, 2018 9:38 pm    Sujet du message: Re: The Light Infantry [and Light Cav] Trap Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:


There's plenty of cheese in the game we just need a definitive ruling on it that takes into account the problems caused by the situation.

a) how the interpenetration works when the unit behind becomes an obstacle because it is now the support.

b) can the player decide which of two units is the support or will there be a ruling that specifies the front unit? And what this means for other situations.*

c) what this means for shooting at and by the units in overlap.

The simplest way out would be a ruling that units that would be contacted flank to flank by a charge should have the option to evade [provided they have the ability, of course]

* Conceptually, I think this presents problems for the rules. To date I've assumed that every unit in a position to contribute to a melee is doing so. In the same way every unit capable of shooting at a target has to shoot at it even if they have no effect, such as the odd numbered light unit or the fifth HC Bow. They can't just choose to shoot at another target because their priority target is overloaded.


I agree perhaps even more strongly than Dave this has other situations.
So you declare the front unit supporting the unit. Can you change that to the rear unit in a succeeding turn? I want one unit to support in my move, but when enemy charges I want the other unit. What about if I ask my opponent they declare which, then I don't charge. So it has no matter. But in there turn they want to change it so they can move through?

Look historically probably for every case we have of lights falling back through heavies we have a case of they didn't get through in time.
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Zoltan
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 06, 2018 12:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Zoltan a écrit:
Why did you specify 4cm?


4cm = 1UD in 15mm scale. 2nd bullet point in "Troops that can evade" on p37

Right, the minimum distance a LI must evade (if it can).
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Ramses II
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 06, 2018 12:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is under discussion by ‘higher authorities’ as we speak 
They agree that the ‘multiple support’ question is valid and needs resolution. 

Hopefully an answer will be presented in a day or two. However it may take a little time since these points revolve around central aspects of the rules. 
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madaxeman
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 06, 2018 8:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
Zoltan a écrit:
Why did you specify 4cm?


4cm = 1UD in 15mm scale. 2nd bullet point in "Troops that can evade" on p37

Right, the minimum distance a LI must evade (if it can).


Not quite.  It’s the distance at which any obstacle behind a unit will prevent an evade move in this context 
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