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Using Army 236 - Wars of the Roses
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highlandbevan
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 23 Déc 2017
Messages: 3
MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 24, 2017 1:03 pm    Sujet du message: Using Army 236 - Wars of the Roses Répondre en citant
I've been solo playtesting WOR battles to see how the rules work.

I believe historically you deployed Bowmen at the front and Billmen behind. The Billmen count as swordsmen so they are allowed to charge through the Bows.

However, it seems hard to co-ordinate this. If you allow the enemy to get within 2U while you still have the archers in the front, they charge you and smash the archers.

If you want to charge the enemy, you can't keep the Bowmen in front once you move within 2U, otherwise they will charge you as above.

If you mistime this, you lose the battle. The archers cannot evade or break off so they just die.

Has anyone managed to get historical tactics to work well with this army? I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks,
Bevan
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ethan
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 174
MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 24, 2017 2:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am not sure about the WotR, but in the 100YW my impression was that the longbow deployed on the flanks with the men-at-arms types in the center.

For "herce" like tactics I find a group of 3 H Sw, preferably one a Foot knight with a two longbowmen deployed on the each flank works pretty well.

I do not think in ADLG that the interpenetration is generally something to take advantage of, occasionally useful but deploying a long line of longbows backed up by a line of billmen generally doesn't work well.

The english bill/longbow armies can be quite effective, but are tricky to play.
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ethan
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 174
MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 24, 2017 2:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I do wonder if there would be justification for a (very expensive) troop type like

1/2 H Sw Armored HW + 1/2 Longbow Elite to be allowed in small numbers to represent the more integral bill/longbow formations at Agincourt. I wouldn't upgrade all the longbows but possibly 0-4

Now these would cost something like 16 points a pop...
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Maverick2909
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 44
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 24, 2017 6:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I too have a WotR army and have dabbled in getting the interpretation to work. You have addressed one of the problems already, the second problem is the amount of points you're dedicating to only one UD of frontage (roughly 20-22 points). I've always been highly outnumbered and have lost when doing such tactics.

The author should really consider giving them the option of taking the units as 1/2 Heavy Sword 1/2 Longbowmen with the option to upgrade to elite, armor, 2HW, etc.

From what I've researched this was the most common tactic in the WotR. You had your archers and MAA very much interdispersed which is much different than the HYW tactics of archer blocks-MAA-archer blocks.

This, plus a change to the Feudal English list to add more longbowmen are some of the changes I think should be made. The English forces really are a mixed bag and aren't the most historically accurate. Another problem I have is mandatory elite for all the longbowmen.

I haven't heard anything back from the author, but hopefully we can have some dialogue and discussion about possible changes in the next update.
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Hazelbark
Légat


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 670
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 02, 2018 9:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I didn't think Agincourt had integrated MAA and Bow. I defer to others who have researched that battle.

Personally the timing works fine if you prefer that tactic.

Enemy advances to 4 UD. You shoot.
Your turn. You shoot.
Enemy advances to 2 UD. You shoot.
Your turn. Your Bill/MAA pass through. If you have the CP you turn your bow and have them back away.
Enemy has now been shot at 3 times. Decent odds of at least a single hit. They are now pinned and not going anywhere.

B
Clever enemy
Enemy advances to 4.5 UD.
You advance to 4 UD. You shoot.
Enemy advances to 2 UD. You shoot.
Your turn. Your Bill/MAA pass through. If you have the CP you turn your bow and have them back away.
Enemy has now been shot at 2 times. Some odds of at least a single hit. They are now pinned and not going anywhere.
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Maverick2909
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 44
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 02, 2018 11:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Which is fine until you realize your spending 22 points per frontage to pull that stunt off. Not to mention if you happen to lose a Swordsman in the first round of combat it’ll hit one of the bow as well.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 2994
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 11:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
when 2HW crossed longbow, use another pip to make longbows going away.
using this army is hightly depending of the terrain.
_________________
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Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
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Hazelbark
Légat


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 670
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 4:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Maverick2909 a écrit:
Which is fine until you realize your spending 22 points per frontage to pull that stunt off. Not to mention if you happen to lose a Swordsman in the first round of combat it’ll hit one of the bow as well.


I didn't say it was a wise use of resources. Just saying it mechanically works. English country lanes with tight deployment of armies between bad terrain I suppose.

The improbability of having a HI 2HW lost in the first round is rather high.
Both are +1.
6 v 1 is 7 v 2 plus 2HW is 8 v 2 = difference of 6 or 3 hits.

So it is likely to take two rounds of fighting. By then the longbow now in the 2nd rank should have the ability to move away.
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Maverick2909
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 44
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 03, 2018 9:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Touche you certainly did not! That said, the way the list is currently structured just isn’t historically accurate for how we understood they fought. It wasn’t as if the archers fell behind the MAA, rather after the archers has fired their volleys of arrows they would move back into formation with the MAA and fight with sword and buckler or pick targets off with bow. There is no account or evidence of archers ever falling back behind the MAA and redeploying to another part of the field.

I maintain my assertion that at present, the list remains historically inaccurate and would benefit from a rework to having the unit type be updated to 1/2 Longbowmen 1/2 Heavy Swordsmen (with appropriate 2HW, armor, and elite upgrades).
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