Art De La Guerre

[Richard Young]

I know this has come up before somewhere but I would appreciate clarification on these as I get very forgetful these days!

1. A unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous) is in front to front contact with a unit of Roman Legionaries (heavy swordsmen impact). Another unit of similar Frankish infantry is in flank to flank contact with the Roman legionaries i.e. in support of his mate.

It is the Franks turn.

The Frankish unit in flank to flank contact does not make an impetuous move as it currently provides flank support. If it wishes to turn on the flank of the Romans then it costs 2 CP. Is this correct?

(If the Roman unit was not in frontal combat then the Frankish unit in flank to flank contact could turn for free. This is not a charge).

2. A unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous) is charged for front to front contact by a unit of Saxon Heavy Spearmen. A Saxon light infantry then contacts the flank of the Frankish infantry with its front edge. This does not prevent the impetuous ability of the Franks (see page 17) but just provides support to the Saxon Heavy Spearmen. The Franks then roll for melee at +2 and so do the Saxons, +2. Correct?

3. If a unit of Roman Legionaries (heavy swordsmen impact) was charged by a unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous)and then also flank contacted by the front edge of a Frankish light infantry, then the impact of the impetuous Frankish infantry is cancelled but so is the impact of the Roman Legionaries. Correct?

Thank you
Richard

[babyshark]

As to item #1: depending on the exact alignment of the side to side contact the second unit of Franks will have to pay either 2 CP (to make a 90 degree turn) or 1 CP (to wheel).

Marc

[Hazelbark]

[Maverick2909]

SO if turning on a unit when in side to side contact with neither unit having an opponent to their front isn’t a charge, neither unit gets first round bonuses such as impact or furious charge?

[Ramses II]

You are talking about something slightly different here.

Hazelbark is referring to p56, attacked on the flank or rear.
- Unit loses 'offensive' abilities and cannot 'furious charge' because both are directional, to the front.
- unit does not cancel out the abilities of the enemy that is fighting it

You are referring to the definition of "charge" p50, that is used elsewhere in the rules.
Since the manoeuvre is not a "charge", neither side benefits from the first round bonuses normally associated with the impetus of speeding into the combat.

[Hazelbark]

[Maverick2909]

So all that really happens is they would go to a 0 combat factor and my flanking unit would get a +1 to combat. I guess that’s still a pretty decent advantage. Thanks!

[daveallen]

So this came up at the weekend more in the sense of "where does it say in the rules?" than "you can't do that!"

[not my games, which were naturally full of gentlemanly discourse and the very idea of questioning another gentleman's motives was anathema]

The first question is:

1) Why does it cost command points (CPs) to conform onto the flank of an engaged enemy?

To quote the rule:

[Steve Price]

And we thought using Franks would make life easier

[Hazelbark]

[daveallen]

Hi Dan,

we're maybe thinking at cross purposes a bit here.

Page 55 Conforming after a melee applies to circumstances where the enemy you're conforming on isn't in melee with another unit.

Page 59 Multiple Opponents says you can conform if already in side to side contact or, if not, can make a simple move to engage in the melee.

So the questions are:

1) Is this two different kinds of conforming? Because the first is free and the other costs command points.

2) Can you in fact wheel (and then conform, obviously) if you're already in side to side contact? Because my reading of page 59 (see above) would be that you can't.

Now I know we've all played it that you pay for the conform in a Multiple Opponents situation, and that you can instead opt to wheel if you're in the right position and it would cost less command points*.

But having gone through the rules I'm inclining to the view that either we're playing it wrong, or the rules are wrong (ie translation problems again).

The third option is that I've missed the relevant rule tucked in somewhere inconspicuous.

* Your point about the FAQ for impetuous units explains why you'd save a command point by wheeling onto the flank, although it doesn't permit the wheel as such.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence

[Hazelbark]

So do you think p 59 over-rides page 55?

Because that seems what this argument suggests. I don't think it does.

[Zoltan]

Page 55 Conforming - these rules only apply where a previous frontal contact NO LONGER exists "After a rout or disengage move..."

Page 59 - these rules apply where a frontal contact exists.

[daveallen]

[Ramses II]

Umm, I thought the FAQ went to some lengths to explain that Conformation only took place after movement, actual or implied by circumstances. 

As such, at the beginning of a turn, a unit may:-

1. React to a change in the melee in which it is now engaged, if permitted, by Conformation (or evading).
   
2. The player may pay CP to move (or rally) the unit.
   If it makes contact with an enemy it must conform.  
3. Otherwise
   • If the unit is regular it remains stationary. 
     
   • If the unit is Impetuous and subject to an uncontrolled movement that is not exempted by circumstances or its situation, then the unit moves by itself. 

I would agree the rules could be better written, but I believe they are intended to be simple, or at least simpler than DBM and the dreaded ‘Barkerese’ referred to.

I think the problem being raised is that similar situations can arise after movement or at the start of a turn that are actually handled differently, depending on how we got to them. 

• Where there was no change to the situation in the previous player’s turn, the unit cannot conform until the player has paid CP and moved it, even if that means merely turning or wheeling to face a flank.
  
• Where the enemy in front of the unit was defeated and another is fighting its flank, or it survived an enemy attacking its flank, or some new enemy made contact etc, the unit may react to this situation, if permitted under the rules, by conforming with that enemy (or by evading if able).