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kevinj
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017 Messages: 328
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
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Posté le: Ven Aoû 13, 2021 10:49 am Sujet du message: Strategists and Initiative |
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There appears to be a change from V3 in the way that the initiative for an army including a Strategist is calculated. In V4 the Strategist has a command value of 3, so is this the value that should be used when calculating initiative. e.g. If I have a Strategist, 1 Competent and 1 Ordinary commander, is my base initiative (3+1+0)/2 = 2. +1 for the Strategist?
If this is correct the Spreadsheets in the Aids section need to be updated to reflect this. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Ven Aoû 13, 2021 12:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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Compare v3 pages 21,22,66 with
V4 pages 24,25,73.
Strategist is still a brilliant commander plus strategists extras.
Only the commander quality table p24(v3 p21) has an extra line. This is contradictory to the following text p24 & 25.
My conclusion would be to delete this extra line in the table.
Otherwise strategist is three points of your army list command points. So no more Vercingetorix for list 89 Gallic? And pretty much all late Roman opponents strategists. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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vexillia
Signifer
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017 Messages: 352
Localisation: Warrington, UK
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Posté le: Ven Aoû 13, 2021 1:19 pm Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | My conclusion would be to delete this extra line in the table. |
Agreed. How do we get this to the DT & the Errata? _________________ Martin Stephenson |
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MC_Delicatessen
Auxiliaire
Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020 Messages: 87
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Posté le: Ven Aoû 13, 2021 9:49 pm Sujet du message: |
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My take is that there is no change from V3.
The "Commander quality" table is confusing and and serves no purpose. Is there such a thing as commander quality in ADLG? It's mentioned again on p73 but why command quality? Makes no sense. It should be either command value, cost, initiative or CP.
Commander quality is not defined anywhere. Basically that section on p24 is a dog's dinner.
Command value hasn't changed since v3, it's still 2 for a strategist.
Strategist = brilliant = costs 2 command value in army list building
Strategist = +3 in CP calculation
Strategist = brilliant = 2 command value in initiative calculation and +1 to the die roll (to a max of +4)
I don't see any change, just a badly labelled table |
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Longtooth
Signifer
Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014 Messages: 350
Localisation: Oxford
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Posté le: Sam Aoû 14, 2021 6:00 am Sujet du message: |
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For what it is worth, that is my view as well.
Jesse |
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kevinj
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017 Messages: 328
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 15, 2021 8:52 am Sujet du message: |
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My initial view was also that it hadn't changed, but the prescence of a new line for Commander value and removal of the specific example that exists in V3 made me question that when it was raised.
For clarity, my only query is regarding the value of a strategist when calculating initiative. The points regarding list building and CPs are clearly defined in the rules. |
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kevinj
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017 Messages: 328
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
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Posté le: Mar Nov 09, 2021 11:26 am Sujet du message: |
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I've not seen an official resolution to this and it's now become relevant for an army list I'm checking for Warfare.
I'd be grateful if someone could clarify this. |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015 Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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Posté le: Mar Nov 09, 2021 6:28 pm Sujet du message: |
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I am confused by your confusion! See p73.
As an example, an army with a Strategist, a brilliant and a competent general and 2LH
P73, bp1: total value of commanders/2 rounded down: Â 2(Strat) + 2 (brilliant) +1 (competent)/2= 2.5 rounded down to 2
(p25 second para defines a Strategist as a brilliant commander)
P73, bp2: +1 because C-in-C is a strategist. Total of 2+1=3
Pu73, bp3: +1 for 2 LH for a grand total of 3+1= 4 army initiative
So to answer your question a Strategist always adds 2 initiative to the army. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 501
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mar Nov 09, 2021 6:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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kevinj a écrit: | I've not seen an official resolution to this and it's now become relevant for an army list I'm checking for Warfare.
I'd be grateful if someone could clarify this. |
MC is correct above. Strategist is +1 for being Brilliant and another +1 for being a Strategist. This is how the Army List spreadsheets on this site do the calculations. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Mar Nov 09, 2021 10:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Yup, the table on P24 is incorrect - the Strategist is +2 points.
I will pass this on. |
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kevinj
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017 Messages: 328
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
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Posté le: Mer Nov 10, 2021 10:10 am Sujet du message: |
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Thank you Ramses, the table is what raised the question. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 11, 2021 5:10 pm Sujet du message: |
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And the Official reply is that El Kreator sees things slightly differently :-- The table on P24 is correct for the Strategist command value used when determining the command points available to his corps during the game.
- P25 shows the correct calculations used when determining the army initiative at the start of the game - ie he counts as a brilliant commander, but then adds +1.
Also that this ‘initiative value’ is also used when building the army, so an army with a command value of +4 may have two Brilliant commanders, one of which may be a Strategist. Basically it is all there in the text folks (as Snowhitsky pointed out).
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 347
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 11, 2021 5:30 pm Sujet du message: |
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kevinj a écrit: | There appears to be a change from V3 in the way that the initiative for an army including a Strategist is calculated. In V4 the Strategist has a command value of 3, so is this the value that should be used when calculating initiative. e.g. If I have a Strategist, 1 Competent and 1 Ordinary commander, is my base initiative (3+1+0)/2 = 2. +1 for the Strategist?
If this is correct the Spreadsheets in the Aids section need to be updated to reflect this. |
It is worth noting that in this forum is a post from El Kreator noting the changes between V3 and V4. Nothing like this is listed in it...so it is probably in general better to assume that it hasn't changed and that readings of the rules consistent with "no change" are probably the correct ones. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 682
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 11, 2021 9:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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El Kreator would have a point if p24 was talking about command points for a corp. But it isn't, in the English edition, it's all about Army command values.
The tables third line should read
Brilliant/strategist +2
And the forth line removed.
This then also makes p25 read with some sense.
In Anglo-Saxon it ballcocks to say +3 on one page is the same as +2 on the next page.
An unnecessary confusion difficult to defend. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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