Art De La Guerre

[Andy Fyfe]

Hi Guys,

This question has raised its head a few times in recent competitions. (My usual disclaimer that I don't want to be seen 'sweating the small stuff etc.)

p29 Movement Allowance, last bullet point:

"Heavy infantry in open terrain may advance 3 UD instead of 2 UD if it starts its movement in the operational zone."

I have previously taken this to mean that HI have a movement allowance of 3UD if >=4UD from the enemy.

However, other players have said it is only a movement of 3UD if the unit 'advances'; i.e. if it uses all of the available UDs to move with no turns.

I think this comes down to the use of the word 'advance' on page 29.

The QRS states under 'Movement allowance':

"3 UD in open terrain if it starts its movement more than 4 UD from the enemy"

No mention of 'advance' (however, it does get the definition of 'operational zone' wrong).

I think the errata point on charge movement probably helps:

"Charge and Minimum Advance Distance (page 43)
If a unit performs a quarter or half turn before charging an evading enemy, this movement cost for turning is counted towards the minimum advance distance of 1 UD or 2 UD. Thus, a non-impetuous cavalry unit that performs a quarter turn and charges must still advance 1 UD after turning."

This uses the term 'advance' but allows the turn to count as part of the 'advance'.

Thoughts?

Andy

[Mark G Fry]

[Ramses II]

Agreed Mark. Basically how you manoeuvre is up to you. Providing the HI start in clear terrain outside 4UD from enemy, they can move 3UD.

[Dickstick]

Also impetuous troops will have to use the 3 UD and not use the 2 UD instead. It's not optional for impetuous.
_________________
Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[Hazelbark]

[KevinD]

[Mark G Fry]

[SteveR]

Sorry Mark, I dont think you are correct. I suspect you of "under-complicating" things.

It is true that a mixed group moves at the speed of the slowest unit but that is because it cannot move any faster and still be a group.

This does not mean that each UNIT in the group has moved its full movement distance. And those units will be penalized.

So in your example, a mixed group of HF and MF inside the operational zone will indeed only move 2UD. The HF cannot move faster. But as the MF have not moved their full distance it will cost 2 CP to do this.

[Mark G Fry]

[madaxeman]

[quote="Mark G Fry"]

[SteveR]

Hi Mark,

I think the line about a group moving at the rate of the slowest unit is unfortunate. It does not add anything of value, because it does not mean that all units in a group have their maximum move allowance reduced to that of the slowest. I am not pleased that we disagree on this, but will take solace in predicting most umpires will take a position consistent with what I am suggesting.

Attaching a war wagon to a line of impetuous medium swordsmen does not reduce their maximum allowance. Although it may reduce how far the group moves if they stay a group.

The lack of discretion on Heavy Infantry in the operational zone movement allowance was litigated previously as well IIRC

Anyway - all the best.

(and page 29 is correct - the zones are Tactical and Operational. Operational is greater than or equal to 4 UD so it reads right)

[Mark G Fry]

Hi Steve
Thoughts & comment - inline in bold (I am not shouting) and below.

[Mark G Fry]

Hi Tim
I'm not quite sure I understand your point above in the context of Kevin's observation? But I'm probably just being dim.

As you indirectly point out, we already have a situation, that the rules legislate for, that allows units in a line of wheeling impetuous HF to move less than 2UDs (or 3UDs outside the Tactical Zone). In fact some units in the wheeling line can remain almost stationary in such a situation.

However, where this question becomes an issue is if you have 2 ranks of impetuous HF where the front rank is within the Tactical Zone and the rear rank is within the Operational Zone. To move the whole two rank group, it appears that a player must expend 2CPs. As the front rank can only move 2UDs and the rear must move 3UDs, but cannot interpenetrate the front rank, so by default can only move 2UDs. The alternative is to only move the front rank and leave the rear behind, if we apply the logic of Steve R's interpretation of a group move. Although this is exactly the circumstance where such a statement around units in a group moving at the speed of the slowest comes naturally into play.

I would also agree that this is probably another one of those - 'angels on a pin-head/once in a blue-moon' sort of scenarios though
Cheers
Mark
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

[SteveR]

Hi Mark,

I am in no way suspecting you of shouting - all old friends here

Here is the discussion - http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8988 Even includes a citiation of the utterances of El Kreator

It's true that in the rules we have some things included because they are needed in other languages, some things that are redundant and some that are ambiguous and inconsistent but sort of clarified. You really cannot hang your hat on the English nuanced meaning of any one word.

From a macro perspective, let me suggest impetuous troops are fairly costed as played and don't need any help. Like Kevin said (starting this bun fight) a nice tactic to use is to make sure some of a group are within 4 UD of a LH or LI and some are not. Kind of makes up for the wheel/counterwheel tactic used by impetuous troops to advance less than a full move.... Serves them right

[Mark G Fry]